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Cpt B
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Posted: Thu Aug 6th, 2009 04:15 pm |
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First off let me say hola to all since I am new to the forum.
What brings me here is that I have been thinking about buying a sailboat somewhere in Mexico in the Cortez cruising area. I am a US citizen who would like to buy a boat on the hard in SC from a Canadian citizen. The owner holds the title and I want to pay cash for the boat so there won't be any banks or brokers involved. Is this a wise thing to do? Or should I get a broker involved to handle the paper work. I have never purchased a boat before so I am not sure of how boat titles are transfered and what the process is especially when three countries are involved.
Thanks for anyones two centavos,
Cpt B
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barato
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Posted: Thu Aug 6th, 2009 04:54 pm |
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Herr Kapitan-
probably need more info to answer the Q. how is boat in Mexico....titled there, or titled in Canada and "temporarily" imported under a 10 year TIP?
if latter, i think you'll need to transfer the CN title in your state (probably works same as out of state purchase, they may need to inspect boat and serial #s, might want to check this out....some states will accept a tracing of serial # so you don't have to bring boat in.) in most states, this is roughly similar to motor vehicle procedure, although it may be admin'd by parks & wildlife dept rather than DMV. you can probably find this out with some brief web research or call to DMV office.
then you get state registration on it. IOW, you'd treat it as thought the boat were located in your state.
once you have this stuff in your name, apply for a Mexican TIP in your name and i guess surrender the old one issued to previous O.
i don't see a problem with paying cash as long as you get bill of sale and signed title when you turn over $. again, check with your state agency to see if they require any special forms so you can print those off and get em signed at same time.
if it's titled in Mexico, i have no idea.
you'll need proof of liability insurance, not for title/TIP process (unless your state requires it for regis), but for most marinas in Mexico including Marina SC
Last edited on Thu Aug 6th, 2009 05:03 pm by barato
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Cpt B
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Posted: Thu Aug 6th, 2009 05:10 pm |
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barato wrote:
Herr Kapitan-
probably need more info to answer the Q. how is boat in Mexico....titled there, or titled in Canada and "temporarily" imported under a 10 year TIP?
if latter, i think you'll need to transfer the CN title in your state (probably works same as out of state purchase, they may need to inspect boat and serial #s, might want to check this out....some states will accept a tracing of serial # so you don't have to bring boat in.) then you get state registration on it. once you have this stuff in your name, apply for a TIP in your name and i guess surrender the old one issued to previous O.
if it's titled in Mexico, i have no idea.
you'll need proof of liability insurance, not for title/TIP process (unless your state requires it for regis), but for most marinas in Mexico incl Marina SC
Boat is titled in Canada and is in Mexico with TIP.
The plan was to meet the owner in SC to look the boat over and do everything down there. I live in Washington State so I want to stay in Mexico for the winter and do all the paper work with out having to make a trip back to Washington.
I probably should be talking to a broker about this. Just thought I would get my feet wet here and meet some future friends and possible neighbors.
Thanks for your input barato.
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Rockrogers
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Posted: Fri Aug 7th, 2009 07:41 am |
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| have you got the boat in mind to purchase?
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Cpt B
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Posted: Fri Aug 7th, 2009 04:22 pm |
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Rockrogers wrote:
have you got the boat in mind to purchase?
Yes, I have a particular boat I am interested in buying, which is the reason I posted this question. Boat ownership, title and registration can be complicated and I am just now looking into how it all works.
I talked to a local broker yesterday who told me there was no need to go through a broker in SC. My local broker suggested I find a title company in Vancouver, BC where the boat owner lives and the title company would hold my payment for the boat in escrow while the title was being transfered.
He also suggest that since I plan on leaving the boat in Mexico that I have the boat ownership put into a Delaware corporation. I am also looking into this aspect of ownership and would like to hear any comments about this.
Cpt B
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mesa
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Posted: Sat Aug 8th, 2009 01:03 am |
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| This is Mexico, not Canada or the US and the officials here don't really care very much about what anyone north of the border thinks the rules are about boats. Before doing anything, talk to Charlie at Sea of Cortez Yachts at Marina San Carlos. SCY has been around for many years and they have a very solid reputation. In your case, since you aren't buying through them, offer a fee to get you onto solid ground. If you get this wrong, you could end up spending a lot of time and a lot of money to end up with nothing.
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John S
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Posted: Sat Aug 8th, 2009 04:36 am |
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Cpt B;
I am a licensed Yacht and Ship Broker in California and I highly suggest that you do the transaction through a broker in San Carlos. I have worked with Charlie at Sea of Cortez Yachts before and can highly recommend him. I don't want this to sound like an endorsement of one indvidual over another but I have known and worked with Charlie before and he knows how to do transfers in Mexico
If the boat is Canadian registration and your are a US citizen (which I assume you are), then you can download a Bill of Sale from the US Coast National Vessel Documentation Center (USCG NVDC) web site. You can even fill in the bill of sale online and then print it out. Have the sellers sign and notarize it at the US Consulate in Hermosillio (you need a US Notary signature on the Bill of Sale). Once you get that, you send the Bill of Sale to the USCG NVDC with an Application for the appropriate fees (this would be an orginal documentation, $133.00 and record the Bill of Sale for $8.00).
As far as the funds, you can work it any way you want, either by online transfer , which is most common these days and gives you a record, or cash. I have done many in cyber space, it's easier and safer than cash and you havea written record....just in case (unless you don't want that)
You did not say how much the boat would cost, so I don't know if you are buying a $5,000 fishing boat or a $100,000 sailing yacht. If you buy the boat in Mexico and document that, and keep the boat in Mexico and document that, you will not be liable for sales tax in Washington, as you will be able to prove you bought it out of state, and kept it out of state.
A broker or Marina San Carlos can help your transfer the Import Permit. Usually you have to wait until you have the title in your name to do this, but a savvy broker down there can be a big help in this regard.
When you make an Application for Original Documentation to the USCG, you can request 'Priority Handling" and if you tell them that the vessel is in a foreign port, and that you cannot get a TIP until you receive title, they may expedite your transfer. There is no extra charge for this you just have to sign a statement under penalty of perjury that it is true. There is also a web site where you can check the status of applications at the USCG NVDC, much like the site that tells you how long the wait is at the border, you can see how many weeks they are behind on applications for redocumentation, or in your case, an original application, which takes a few weeks longer but shouldn't be a problem. I just did one in fact, but the reverse, from US Documentation to Canadian.
You can also do a bill of sale and apply for Washington State registration but that is more cumbersome from Mexico. In any case eventually the State of Washington will want you to register the boat there, if you are a resident.
Some states like Washington require that federally documented boats also be registered in the state as well. But unless you use a Washington address they would never know. If you do use a Washington address on your USCG application,, then the USCG NVDC will eventually cross records with Washington State, and they would probably send you a questionaire about the boat at best, or a tax bill at worst. If you use an address in Arizona or some other similar state, then you won't worry about Washington tax or registration
Forget about Delaware Corporations, you don't need that unless it's a million dollar boat, and in that case, you form a Delaware Corporation. and you don't need that (it also costs money to do this). A Vessel Documentation Service (private companies, not the USCG) would also charge you about $450 to do the same things that I just outlined for you here above!
In any case, I wish you good luck on your boat transaction.....and with your new boat....
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Cpt B
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Posted: Sun Aug 9th, 2009 03:29 am |
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John S wrote:
Cpt B;
I am a licensed Yacht and Ship Broker in California and I highly suggest that you do the transaction through a broker in San Carlos. I have worked with Charlie at Sea of Cortez Yachts before and can highly recommend him. I don't want this to sound like an endorsement of one indvidual over another but I have known and worked with Charlie before and he knows how to do transfers in Mexico
Thanks for the referral, I will talk to him if I end up buying a boat.
If the boat is Canadian registration and your are a US citizen (which I assume you are), then you can download a Bill of Sale from the US Coast National Vessel Documentation Center (USCG NVDC) web site. You can even fill in the bill of sale online and then print it out. Have the sellers sign and notarize it at the US Consulate in Hermosillio (you need a US Notary signature on the Bill of Sale). Once you get that, you send the Bill of Sale to the USCG NVDC with an Application for the appropriate fees (this would be an orginal documentation, $133.00 and record the Bill of Sale for $8.00).
I forgot to mention that the Canadian bought the boat from a US citizen and the boat was and I believe still is in USCG Documentation. If I remember correctly the Canadian owner has continued to renew it.
As far as the funds, you can work it any way you want, either by online transfer , which is most common these days and gives you a record, or cash. I have done many in cyber space, it's easier and safer than cash and you havea written record....just in case (unless you don't want that)
When I said I would pay cash for the boat my intention is not to actually pay in rolls of $$$ but simply that I would not need to finance the purchase.
You did not say how much the boat would cost, so I don't know if you are buying a $5,000 fishing boat or a $100,000 sailing yacht. If you buy the boat in Mexico and document that, and keep the boat in Mexico and document that, you will not be liable for sales tax in Washington, as you will be able to prove you bought it out of state, and kept it out of state.
A broker or Marina San Carlos can help your transfer the Import Permit. Usually you have to wait until you have the title in your name to do this, but a savvy broker down there can be a big help in this regard.
Another good reason to find a Broker in SC.
When you make an Application for Original Documentation to the USCG, you can request 'Priority Handling" and if you tell them that the vessel is in a foreign port, and that you cannot get a TIP until you receive title, they may expedite your transfer. There is no extra charge for this you just have to sign a statement under penalty of perjury that it is true. There is also a web site where you can check the status of applications at the USCG NVDC, much like the site that tells you how long the wait is at the border, you can see how many weeks they are behind on applications for redocumentation, or in your case, an original application, which takes a few weeks longer but shouldn't be a problem. I just did one in fact, but the reverse, from US Documentation to Canadian.
Hopefully the vessel is still documented.
You can also do a bill of sale and apply for Washington State registration but that is more cumbersome from Mexico. In any case eventually the State of Washington will want you to register the boat there, if you are a resident.
I will look into it and see if I can wait till my return home.
Some states like Washington require that federally documented boats also be registered in the state as well. But unless you use a Washington address they would never know. If you do use a Washington address on your USCG application,, then the USCG NVDC will eventually cross records with Washington State, and they would probably send you a questionaire about the boat at best, or a tax bill at worst. If you use an address in Arizona or some other similar state, then you won't worry about Washington tax or registration
I wonder if Washington will defer the tax if the vessel was not purchased in the state and will remain outside the state? I'll look into it.
Forget about Delaware Corporations, you don't need that unless it's a million dollar boat, and in that case, you form a Delaware Corporation. and you don't need that (it also costs money to do this). A Vessel Documentation Service (private companies, not the USCG) would also charge you about $450 to do the same things that I just outlined for you here above!
Your right about the Corporation fees; Incorporation Fee: $450, Complete Corporate Kit: $100, Annual Registered Agent Fee: $145, Annual Delaware Franchise Tax: $100.
In any case, I wish you good luck on your boat transaction.....and with your new boat....
Thank you very much John, you have helped me understand much better what the process is and I will take your advice and find a Broker in SC who I like and is willing and able. I will talk to Charlie first and who knows I may even end up finding a boat listed through a Broker.
Cpt B
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John S
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Posted: Sun Aug 9th, 2009 04:21 pm |
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Cpt B;
I am happy that I was able to offer some suggestions and advice for your boat buying venture.
As far as the boat that you are interested in now, if it is US Documented boat it can not be owned by a Canadian, unless the Canadian has dual citizenship. Only US citizens can own US documented boats.
If the boat is US documented, it will have a registration number, that the Coast Guard calls the "Offical Number". If you get this number, then you can call or email to the USCG National Vessel Document Center (NVDC) in West Virginia and request what is called an "Abstract of Title". This will cost $25 and you can do it by credit or debit card over the phone, by fax or by Internet with USCG web site. That Abstract will show you the current owners, any previous owners and any mortgages recorded on the vessel. It is the same as a title search for a house, but the Abstract is usually quicker and easier. Amazing how much information is available. It will show every owner (and mortgage) since the boat was built, even if the boat is from the 1920's!
The boat may be in Canadian documentation and if so you would just get a notarized USCG bill of sale and make an application to the USCG to document it. If it had been removed from US Coast Guard documentation at some point, you can simply redocument it.
If you buy a boat in Mexico the State of Washington cannot tax you for that because it is an out of state sale. They will undoubtedly require some proof, but that should be very easy to furnish, especially if you have marina or yard bills, and of course the Temporary Import Permit (TIP). And your home county in Washington may also send you a questionaire, but if you send them the same info it shouldn't be a problem. In some states like California, they require a great deal of proof, and some counties try to assess boats that are never even in the state. Especially now when the state and counties are broke and need the money.
Good luck on your search. There are some excellent buys on boats in San Carlos now, if you ever wanted a boat, this is the time to buy
John S
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Cpt B
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Posted: Sun Aug 9th, 2009 07:44 pm |
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John S,
Thanks again for your help and valuable information. You are a wealth of information! Do you visit SC often? Beers are on me if your going to be down there this winter.
Cpt B
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John S
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Posted: Tue Aug 11th, 2009 10:51 pm |
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Cpt B;
Happy to give you the info....
Yes I hope to be in San Carlos this winter, and maybe even sooner! I'll look you up for that beer if I do.
Meanwhile , good luck on your boat search
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ccote
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Posted: Mon Nov 2nd, 2009 10:51 pm |
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| Ck out http://www.sail-the-office.com
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