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tecate
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Posted: Thu Mar 6th, 2008 04:34 pm |
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I have been kind of involved, mostly observing, a revolution occurring within the Sportfishing community in Cabo San Lucas. There is a ground swell that is gaining momentum to eliminate baited J-hooks and billfish kill tournaments. This well organized and well funded group of Mexicans, North Americans, Central Americans, South Americans, Australians, Europeans and Africans are also working to eliminate the NOM-029 or Shark Norma. These men and women are not full time activists; they are comprised of charter company captains/owners and Sportfishing enthusiasts. They are passionate about the conservation of the Sea of Cortez and have a vested interest in preserving this resource.
My question for you San Carlos is can we continue to side with the conservation efforts; and not tow the line? Are we ready to do our part and pressure the tournament committees to dismantle the weigh station billfish gallows and evolve our baiting techniques? Can we stomach our perceived lower hook-up ratio while switching to circle hooks? Is it worth the effort…can our egos stand for change?
Regardless of your personal feeling about potential change, we owe these people a debt of gratitude for their efforts. We are directly affected. Some, if not most of our Marlin, Sailfish, Dorado and Tuna have to turn that corner at the tip of Baja to reach us.
Same me a beer.
Matt Wallace
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tantrum
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Posted: Fri Mar 7th, 2008 02:23 am |
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Matt, You brought up a great topic. Circle hook fishing is no doubt the wave of the future and coming to the viewer's community soon. Everyone will benefit from the use of circle hooks over the long run. One would hope that the community as a whole will eventually support their use and focus on conservation and best practices. One of those best practices is to practice catch and release, and to not exceed legal bag limits. Through recreational fishing best practices, better commercial practices, and reasonable management of fish populations, the resource will be around for countless generations of fisherman. What must take place is a set limit on the amount of fish that are harvested per year by commercial and recreational fisherman and there enforcement around the world! This will play a big role in ensuring the strength of the fishery.
One question to ponder is, Does the novice fisherman who fails to bring a sailfish to the boat in time get a free pass in the event of the death of a billfish but the tournament competitor face elimination of their sport? I'm not sure of the sheer number of fish harvested in kill tournaments but I'd have to believe it is a mere fraction of those killed on accident during recreational fish fighting/handling. Certainly it is no where near the amount killed by commercial interests and illegal harvests. I for one have lost a few fish in my days. Some hit the prop and some died from exhaustion and some died due to the lack of experience at the wheel, mine included. Maybe they would have survived under professional fish handling and boat manuvering but it was not the case during my learning curve. Not sure how many captains and anglers out there can perform at the level of the pros, but I doubt it is 1 in 1,000. Even the pros lose fish to accidents and as often witnessed on the GBR, predation. The latter being natures unforgiving way of keeping many species population levels in check. So what is reasonable? Zero, a few or a reasonable amount? I'm going to go with a reasonable amount and practice the best fishing methods I can to do my share.
Although I may not have the best analogy, I just do not believe that one must be forced to drive a Prius to support a clean enviroment movement. What would we do without Cat 797's.
Nor do I believe that one has to take the position of non fish killer to be viewed as credible when it comes to fisheries management. Some of the greatest solutions have come from the minds of "reasonable men". I'm probably not getting invited to fish the Rolex IGFA now am I??????
-Jarrod
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luckyDucks
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Posted: Fri Mar 7th, 2008 03:45 am |
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Matt funny you should bring this topic up I attended a demonstration for NO ON NOM this past weekend they want our help. The prsident of the Billfish foundation was there. There are many ways people can get envolved.
The thing is we need to get active or our children will not enjoy the same great fishing we do now.
Steve
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edgie
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Posted: Fri Mar 7th, 2008 02:39 pm |
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MATT, Thanks for bringing up this subject. I feel it is a issue worth exploring. First i appluad you and the countless others that are out beating the drum for fish conservation. I fully support ther efforts in a practial manner(fishing habits) and a financial manner (donations).
I agree with the majority of your view points and would fully support making all of the SAN CARLOS tournament release only tounaments. There is no honor (in my opnion) of hanging a fish up just for bragin rights or to win a trophy or side pot.
I do however strongly disagree with your (and the prevailing opinion) on J hooks. I feel there is a clear difference between the use of j hooks on rigged bait and there use on live bait. I have fished both for more years than i would like to admitt and can only draw on my personal experiences.
Based on those experences I would fully support any effort that would make circle hooks mandatory on any live bait but i would strongly reject the notion that useing j hooks on trolled, rigged bait was detremental to the fish population.
JUST MY THOUGHTS
EDDIE
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Matt Blair
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Posted: Fri Mar 7th, 2008 07:40 pm |
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Good thoughts here guys. I had a dream about reviving a billfish last night, no kidding.
I agree a lot of fish are lost during the fight, not on a percentage level, but a lot acround the world every year. Not sure on how many, but surely more than the number of fish killed in tournaments. However, intent is a significant part of this issue. Here's the difference:
You catch a fish that is tail wrapped or dies some other way even though you had every intent of releasing...using the proper gear and boat backing techniques.
You catch a fish that you can estimate weighs more than the minimum for a tournament, so you grab a bat and bash it in the head till it's dead.
Then there's those who want the fish so they can have it for their wall. http://www.kingsailfishmounts.com has an answer for that. Most of those folks don't fish often; the charter company and captain are responsible for preventing dead fish for wall mounts.
Fish will always die in this sport, but they're better off if we work to keep them alive.
As much as I suck at it, I'm committed to using circle hooks with live and dead bait. Not because I've killed a bunch of fish accidentally using J hooks, but because research shows that Circle hooks are safer. I believe in research. You can argue against it, but there are a lot of studies that all show circle hooks are safer. It's the major tool used to prove a point at a political level too (like what TBF is doing for Norma 029). There are also studies that show the hook up ratio is higher using circle hooks. I can tell you researchers haven't been on my boat, or that curve would not be so grand.
There's always resistance to change. Using circle hooks vs. J hooks for live and dead bait makes many of the fishermen in SC (to include captains) have to change their ways. It makes us amateurs again. I'm comitted to learning the art of the hook up with a circle hook. I look forward to when my hook up ratios rise above the ones I had with J hooks; I'm confident they will...I've never been great with J hooks either
Bottom line is that we need to continue to support conservation efforts, and part of that has to do with what we intend for the fate of the fish when we catch it. I'll do everything I can to ensure it will live to be released. If it dies, do I leave it for the sea, or bring it back to the dock and feed the orphanage? Yet another discussion I guess.
Happy Fishing. Matt
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luckyDucks
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Posted: Fri Mar 7th, 2008 07:59 pm |
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Matt you are right in time we will all get better with circle hooks. In Cabo that is all anyone uses and they catch a ton of fish.
Once we start believeing in them and practicing more we will get really good.
Steve
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Catch-22
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Posted: Fri Mar 7th, 2008 08:09 pm |
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Matt- Well put, I think you will be pleased to know that only 2 of the 6 Tournaments In SC. still have a 250 pound Min. kill for Marlin, the rest have gone to Only release..Overall I'm very Impressed with the Catch & Release Practice here in San Carlos and Commend all the Private Boats & Charter companies for there Efforts...Captain Gerardo, Fernando & Myself have gone to Circle hooks only on bait , so Catch-22 SPA. is 75% of the way there...Lets all keep up the good work
Steve
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Matt Blair
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Posted: Fri Mar 7th, 2008 08:14 pm |
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Steve - glad to hear Cabo is treating you well...wish I could be there.
Steve - I agree. San Carlos does a good job with catch & release at all levels. I'm happy to be part of such a great community!
Looking forward to seeing you all at the dock. MB
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edgie
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Posted: Fri Mar 7th, 2008 09:04 pm |
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MATT,
Not long ago on this board there was a discussion about water freezing faster if it was hot or cold. there were various scientific studies that proved both theories correct. I have read a lot of studies comparing j@circle but all that i have read compare either live or free spooled bait. Not saying ther is not one out there it is just i have never read one that compares the mortality rate on trolled bait. Even if there is one i would tend to rely on my own experience. Maybe i have been lucky but i canot remerber a fish that was killed because of a deep hook set on a trolled bait,certainly not in recent memory.
You also make the point that we all would get better with circle hooks. I believe that is true. But getting better does not get you back to par. Lets not loose sight of the fact that we all have hugh investments in this sport and we are sometimes limited in the number of times we are able to enjoy this sport(6 times a year ect). The purpose of this investment is to catch fish and relax. There is no doubt in my mind that i can and will cacth more fish trolling rigged bait on jhooks. Yes we have a obligation to be responsible and preserve the ocean for future generations and i take that responsibility very serously. I can not speak for anyone else but i know for a fact that i do not kill billfish because of rigged baits.
Resistence to change was also mentioned. to me it is not about resistance but about reason for change. Change for the sake of change is not neccesarly good. I can agree that changing to all release tounaments are sound. i can agree that changing to circle hooks on live and free spooled baits are reasonible. i agree that we all must be active in conservation and do our part. But to change to circle hooks on rigged baits will not accomplish any measurable results and to do so would,for me) be a shallow attempt at trying to be politicaly correct.
WITH YOU IN SPIRIT
EDDIE
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Matt Blair
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Posted: Fri Mar 7th, 2008 09:31 pm |
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Roger that Eddie. I guess I've agreed to make a black and white decision on it, not for the sake of PC, but for a personal commitment. I know we all fish a little different, and you certainly have figured out what works a lot better than many of us. I trust you haven't lost fish on trolling deadbaits with J Hooks...I haven't either. I do keep my reels on free spool with clicker on, put a few twists in the line, then hook it on a flat line clip when I troll dead baits....hoping that the billfish will knock the bait off the flat line and then eat it well. That probably leaves better potential for injuring the fish than if I left a bit of drag on.
Of course, the way we fish in San Carlos, if different than how many do it in Cabo, and that's different than how they do it in Costa Rica, and that's..... you get what I mean. Many places have structure to fish over, and we don't so much. So while one may be casting dead baits, another may be trolling them.
I'll see what I can find regarding dead baits with circle hooks. I can't recall specific studies so you might be right. Even if I find data that supports the claim that circle hooks are safer while using deadbaits. How were they fishing (casting or trolling)? I also agree that change for the sake of change is pointless.
Setting rules for tournaments is also part the circle hook debate. Enforcment of the rules is yet another.
I hate to get bogged down in all the rules and specifics, but do think this topic is very important to both tournaments and everyday angling. I think we all wish we could have more days on the water, even the Naked Weather Man. We do it for fun, and I can't even wait to introducemy 1 yr old and 2 yr old to their first billfish!
Adios. MB
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tecate
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Posted: Fri Mar 7th, 2008 09:55 pm |
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True story
I was pre-fishing a tournament in Costa Rica with the Naked Weather Man and 00-Kevin last year. We came up on a derelict long-line floating around waiting to cause trouble. We hauled that thing on-board for what seemed like 30 minutes. Kevin and I were waist deep in hooks and mono. Funny thing was, every hook on that long-line was a 10/0 circle hook. Come to find out that most big commercial long-liners use c-hooks on their string. The reason, I found out was both morbid and a testament to the c-hook. Better hook-up and the fish stayed alive and fresh until the line was retrieved.
Great discussion gentlemen! Thanks for thinking about it.
Suerte
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fishingnut
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Posted: Sat Mar 8th, 2008 12:32 am |
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Interesting reading about the circle/j hook discussion again.
A point or two...
1. If you are fishing deep for bottom fish circles will hook more fish. I have tried both and circles just work better. And, if you bring up a fish you don't want, it doesn't make any difference which hook you used..the pressure kills em anyway.
2. For throwing bait at fish, either dead or alive, either works pretty well. Unless you are purposely letting the fish swallow the bait I have not seen a big difference in mortality..if the hook gets down in the gill rakers the fish is going to die. Actually, it seems to me the circles seem to do at least as much damage on a deep hooked fish..and the circles DO hook deep as well...if you hook in the mouth or lip, as is the case most of the time, either is about the same.
3. For trolling bait I just don't think it matters as far as mortality is concerned..but I actually think the circles seem to hook better when the fish is grabbing, turning and running. You just have to change your hooking response a little.
4. Killing fish for tournaments seems to be the main issue for sportsfisherman...not whether you do it with j's or circles. If someone is really concerned about this, just quit killing for tournaments. The hook you use is immaterial.
5. Lastly, sportfisherman have a smaller effect on fish stocks than anything to do with the type of hook we use. When you have to dodge longlines to fish and the trawlers are at work and the purse seiners are at work to feed waaaay too many mouths, that is the real issue. And it affects everything on the planet that humans eat, not just fish. Lots of animals are facing extinction, both from loss of habitat and just plain being eaten by us. We also use seafood by the millions of tons to feed cats and dogs as an example. Shrimp trawlers kill about 100# of baby fish for every 5 # of shrimp they catch.
I have heard a lot about j hooks and circles for the last umpteen years...are they the real issue?
Just a thought.
fisingnut
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B4
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Posted: Wed Mar 12th, 2008 02:09 am |
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How do you guys feel about using a heavier outfit to bring the fish in faster? Fishermen love to “fight” their fish and often use the lightest rig they think will do the job. How much difference would it make if they used something 10 or 20 pounds heavier and got the battle over faster?
Sorry if this is blasphemy but it’s something I’ve been contemplating recently.
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tecate
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Posted: Wed Mar 12th, 2008 03:17 am |
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B4 Good question! Two scenarios, lets talk billfish for example; to heavy tackle you have a green fish to release that poses a danger to you, your boat, your crew and the fish itself. To light of tackle, without an experienced captain at the helm you will most likely have a dead near dead fish.
Strickly speaking to San Carlos, 30 or 50-lb tackle across the board can give the fight and protect the fish. I run both, often in the same spread. Lots of guys like the 50-lb graphite reel rigs that offer tons of line and very light weight.
Remember it is real important to set your drag properly, usually 25-30% of your line test.
Suerte
Mateo
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edgie
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Posted: Wed Mar 12th, 2008 02:57 pm |
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B4,
From my experience Matt is right on. the surviveability of the fish has less to do with the size of the tackle and is more dependent on the ability of the captian and crew to get to the fish quickly and handle the fish properly at the boat. the ability to get to this fish quickly is more determinded by skill of the captian and angler than by line size.
in most cases if we are fishing with a new angler for fun we will typically take 15 to 20 minutes to land and release a fish. That is long enough for the angler to have his workout but not so long that it completely spends the fish. However during a tounament or with a experienced angler that time is cut in half( normal sized San Carlos fish) usually 10 minutes or less regardless of line size.
SUMMERS COMIN
EDDIE
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B4
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Posted: Wed Mar 12th, 2008 03:49 pm |
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I haven’t had the pleasure of fishing the Sea of Cortez yet but I’m looking forward to it this summer. I’ve fished the Yucatan and Florida for billfish with most of my experience on Florida sailfish that are smaller than any of the billfish in the Cortez. We almost always used 20 Lb spinning rigs for those and had many brought to the boat tail wrapped and exhausted. Most of the tournaments we fished limited us to 20 Lb rigs but anytime there was no limit, the crew always had heavier gear in the water. I figure all else being equal, getting the fish to the boat faster would make a difference in survivability.
While we’re on the subject of hooks, what’s the thinking about offset hooks? None of the tournaments I’ve fished have allowed them.
Thanks for the response Mateo and Eddie.
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Catch-22
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Posted: Wed Mar 12th, 2008 08:28 pm |
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B4- I assume you are asking about offset " Circle" hooks not J hooks..In my mind they defeat the whole purpose of using a circle hook, if swallowed they can gut hook a fish. most all circle hook only tournaments do not allow them.
I do agree with Edgie on J hooks with dead bait.In the past five years I can only think of 1 bill fish I gut hooked and Killed with them.I'm sure I had at least 3 die in the same time period from tail wraps..Now here is were I disagree with Edgie, my hook-up rate for Dead bait with circle hooks is way better than J hooks, My move to Circle hooks was to Catch more fish, my Partner Fernando was 8 for 8 last year from the first Circle hook Rig he used..Go figure ..Captain Gerardo Caught way over 100 billfish last year on circle hooks and Loves Them ..and to top things off we use them with a skirted Rig and Rig them the Exact same way we rig J hooks..all the experts say it will not work , but the fish have not read there articles
Tight lines
Steve
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luckyDucks
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Posted: Wed Mar 12th, 2008 08:35 pm |
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people ....... people these are all good ideas. The main issue is voting No on NOM as it is currently written.
Right now the government is hiding behind the turtles and sharks that the NOM currently protects.
Reporting illegal commercial fishing and the long liners. And helping the petition of No on NOM is the most important issue right now.
All your ideas are a good effort and will have an impact over time.
SF
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B4
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Posted: Wed Mar 12th, 2008 09:59 pm |
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Hello Steve,
I know offset hooks are against the rules in all the Florida tournaments I’ve fished. Circle hooks are pretty common out there these days but when I was fishing there, the J hook was the norm. My avatar is a 4/0 circle hook that I bent by putting too much pressure on a very green sail that I sight cast to when we saw them on the surface several years ago. It was about 7 minutes to lines out when the captain saw the fish on the surface and made a last ditch effort to grab one more for our score that day. We went 7 for 7 and I was fishing with my sister on a two “man” team. We still got beat by another boat but made enough to pay for the boat and cocktails that day.
Because we always had fresh ballyhoo, we didn’t rig them with skirts or wire them up. We just jammed a hook through their lower jaw and that was it. If we were trolling, we broke off the bill, if we were pitching, we didn’t bother. I think, rigged like this either the J or the circle hook are about as effective. I think when you’re rigging with lures and skirts, the J may have advantages but I’m looking forward to learning what you guys are doing down there.
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