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Inde
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Posted: Tue Feb 26th, 2008 02:39 am |
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| Soured milk is used all the time for tenderizing. It is not spoiled milk. It is sold as buttermilk. Your can make your own by adding one tablespoon of vinegar to 1 cup of whole milk, mix and let it stand for 5 mins. Soak fish/meat for no longer than 30 mins and discard milk after. Last edited on Tue Feb 26th, 2008 02:40 am by Inde
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beegees2
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Posted: Tue Feb 26th, 2008 02:44 am |
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| thanks Inde, good info. We are making up a mess tomorrow night to treat our friends. Does anyone know where to get good curry powder around here?
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bahiatrader
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Posted: Tue Feb 26th, 2008 04:22 am |
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Wow! You guys are blowing me away. Vinegar contains acetic acid, not lactic acid. I'm puzzled how a weak acid solution can penetrate cell walls and migrate deep into the meat in only thirty minutes to tenderize it. Does chemistry work differently in Mexico? Do they have different laws of physics in Mexico? I suggest you try some with, and some without if you insist on believing that story... or call the MythBusters.
Curry powder is hard to find in Mexico, as is ginger.
Last edited on Tue Feb 26th, 2008 05:20 am by bahiatrader
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Divecoz
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Posted: Tue Feb 26th, 2008 05:50 am |
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bahiatrader wrote: Wow! You guys are blowing me away. Vinegar contains acetic acid, not lactic acid. I'm puzzled how a weak acid solution can penetrate cell walls and migrate deep into the meat in only thirty minutes to tenderize it. Does chemistry work differently in Mexico? Do they have different laws of physics in Mexico? I suggest you try some with, and some without if you insist on believing that story... or call the MythBusters.
Curry powder is hard to find in Mexico, as is ginger.
I would have to agree Vinegar would be to flavour only. AS for Curry and Ginger not being available in SanCarlos ?? Must be a regional thing, as you'll find it in Merida Cancun Most of the Q.Roo and the Yucatan . Of coarse not necessarily in small Mom and Pops ....
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bahiatrader
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Posted: Tue Feb 26th, 2008 02:19 pm |
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I think it's interesting how "wives tales" and myths become truth over time. When I was very young, I ask my mom why she always put hot water in her ice trays. She said it was because hot water freezes faster than cold water. This is still a widely accepted fact, especially for people living in the Northern lattitudes. I accepted this as fact, and always filled my ice trays with hot water until I started studying the sciences. I even had a chemical engineer with a Phd. tell me it was because of "heat loss momentum". Being curious, and a natural born debunker, I conducted experiments to validate this belief. Contrary to the widespread conviction, cold water always freezes faster than hot water under equal conditions. For those who disbelieve, I can even show a chemical proof why this is so.
In colder areas years ago, plumbing was usually on outside walls of houses, often with poor insulation. People often get up in the middle of the night to use the bathroom. Because the cold water was usually circulated, it didn't freeze while the uncirculated water in the hot water pipes did, hence the beginning of the myth. I'm told that the use of hot and spicy foods in warmer parts of the world evolved to diguise the taste of decompisition. The use of sour milk on seafood evolved the same way to disguise the "fishy" smell and taste, which it does well. The so-called fishy smell is actually decomposing or rotting fish. Genuinely fresh seafood doen not have a fishy smell. When I walk into a seafood market with a "fishy" smell, I usually turn around and walk out. When I buy seafood in a US supermarket, I always smell before I buy. Unfortunately, so-called fresh seafood in the US often has a fishy smell.
Along with lactobacilli, the bacteria that produces lactic acid in milk, other bacteria, sometimes pathogenic, can proliferate also. If you want to find out for yourself whether or not sour milk tenderizes food, try cooking the same food with and without. If you want calamari to be really tender, try a pressure cooker, or cook it for a long time until the collagen starts breaking down. I. myself, am not going to contaminate good food with rotting milk. I like fresh milk, and I like fresh calamari cooked hot and fast.
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beegees2
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Posted: Tue Feb 26th, 2008 04:00 pm |
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| I'm impressed with the technical knowledge that you all have, even if it is conflicting. Good to see, Bahiatrader that you like Calamari because in one post, I believe, you pooh poohed it. It's generally accepted, I think, that a vinegar based marinade tenderizes meat. I don't know why. We have a mess of fresh, frozen squid to prepare for tonight. I'm interested in preparing it in a variety of ways including breaded and quickfried, and also simmered for an hour in a sauce, maybe with pasta. I hope soaking in milk helps the squid absorb the flavor from the sauce (no idea what theory behind that). I am going to try both ways as Bahiatrader suggests.
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Divecoz
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Posted: Tue Feb 26th, 2008 04:30 pm |
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Vinegar will tenderize meat it just will take more than 30 minutes to penetrate deeply and then break down the cells/ tenderize. It will however penetrate and add its own distinct flavour in that amount of time.
Making Pot Roast after you brown it on all sides add some vinegar with the Veggies for the slow cook. You can use any high acid marinade to do this as well. Tomatoes work well also. Acid has been used for 100's of years as a preservative or a means of killing or reducing bacteria hence the use of chilli's world wide.
That is why some / most chilli's taste "HOT" because they are chemically burning the mucus membranes of your mouth throat and nasal passages.
That is why you must be careful when adding seasoned vinegar broth whatever to hot skillets Woks etc. The steam carries the acid to your eyes face and respiratory system.
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Inde
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Posted: Tue Feb 26th, 2008 05:26 pm |
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Most of youare missing the point. The vinigar is used to sour the milk only. And yes, 30 mins is not long enough. Overnight is better. If you do not want to use vinigar then use store bought buttermilk or yogurt. The following is copied and pasted. The buttermilk also sticks so it is easy for seasoning to stick. this method is most commonly used for southern fried chicken recipes.
It was long assumed that the acids and enzymes in buttermilk and yogurt tenderized meat. It is now known that calcium in these dairy products triggers “aging” enzymes within muscle and connective tissues, which, in turn, degrade certain proteins that hold bundles of muscle fibers together.
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Divecoz
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Posted: Tue Feb 26th, 2008 05:36 pm |
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My point is rather, why bother with milk when you can cause the same reaction and add a desired flavour. Milk may work and in some cases may be more desirable , it just not desireable for me .
For me the thought is all but disgusting. I will and do often use seasoned vinegars.
BTW you can also use fresh Papaya, it is in fact the active ingredient in Adolph's meat tenderizer.
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Divecoz
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Posted: Tue Feb 26th, 2008 05:46 pm |
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What freezes faster Hot or Cold water?
#1.Here is what a Physics Labs is saying.
http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/General/hot_water.html
#2.another team found
http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a2_098b.html
#3.Nor should we leave these fellows out. http://www.wiskit.com/marilyn/freezing.html
#4.Yet another voice: similar to #1 btw
http://www.school-for-champions.com/science/mpemba.htm
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bahiatrader
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Posted: Tue Feb 26th, 2008 06:10 pm |
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"Aging" meat as our ancesters have done for so long is simply degradation or rotting of collagen and muscle fiber. In certain parts of Europe, fowl were hung by the neck until the body fell off signifying that it was properly "aged". It has also long been known in Mexico that a certain type of lizard will crawl up inside of a pregnant woman and cause still-birth or even death. It must be true or people wouldn't have believed it for so long.
properly made buttermilk is OK. I don't want to have any more kids, and I don't want to eat rotten meat. You guys do what you want. I'll eat my seafood fresh.
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bahiatrader
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Posted: Tue Feb 26th, 2008 06:40 pm |
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I once offered a $1,000.00 reward on the EOU campus to show the truth of the Mpemba effect. Dr. Andrews, a renowned chemical engineer and vice president of a well known multi-million dollar corporation was a proponent of the "Mpenda effect". Nobody ever ask me for my $1,000.00. Herman Goebels, the great German propagandist knew how to make people believe things also. I won't take the time or effort to show a chemical proof that few would understand. I take the position of my wife's great uncle Harry S. Truman, "Show me."
For the benefit of those who didn't go to Divecoz's URLs, the "Mpenda effect" says that hot water will freeze faster than cold water.
Last edited on Tue Feb 26th, 2008 06:50 pm by bahiatrader
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Inde
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Posted: Tue Feb 26th, 2008 06:54 pm |
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bahiatrader wrote: "I don't want to eat rotten meat. You guys do what you want. I'll eat my seafood fresh.
I guess you will not like my hung and brined pheasant recipe then
BTW do you like corned beef?
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bahiatrader
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Posted: Tue Feb 26th, 2008 07:00 pm |
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| No thanks on the pheasant. We always used to butcher our own beef. The brisket always went in a crockpot for making corned or pickled beef. I give up. Maybe I'll go get pickled myself!
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Divecoz
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Posted: Tue Feb 26th, 2008 07:17 pm |
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bahiatrader wrote: No thanks on the pheasant. We always used to butcher our own beef. The brisket always went in a crockpot for making corned or pickled beef. I give up. Maybe I'll go get pickled myself!
NOW there for sure is a good idea! Humm a Sol or Victoria beer batter or a Manhattan Pickle-ing
I guess all the above answers are right or at least right for some one. I would hazard to guess that is why every little one horse town has 2 or more Restaurant's . Everyone doesnt agree on personal opinions.
Last edited on Tue Feb 26th, 2008 07:28 pm by Divecoz
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Jimmy
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Posted: Wed Feb 27th, 2008 12:17 am |
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I am interested in knowing if the Squid you are referring to is the Giant Humboldt Squid? If so, then everyone should know that it is a huge slab of meat, usually 1+ inches thick and, when spread out will be 18" wide X 20+ inches long. Not your regular (Store bought calamari) small variety. If it is not the Humboldt, I would like to know how they caught em?
Also, I have noticed that things, including Old Wives Tales, work regardless of what the scientists say. For example; chicken soup cut short my flu attack.
By the way, don't pay any attention to the man behind the curtain (wizard of OZ) or Mr. scientific, or Mr. wizard. There are still amazing occurances that can not be explained by chemistry or science.
Point is that if it works it works, no matter what the Nae Sayers or the Intelligentsia sez.
Still, it is enjoyable to see science try to explain away reality.
Attachment: Copy of Mexico 053.jpg (Downloaded 108 times) Last edited on Wed Feb 27th, 2008 01:22 am by Jimmy
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Chillerbuilder
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Posted: Wed Feb 27th, 2008 06:18 pm |
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I liked this thread for two reasons. One, I have been building ice making and water chilling equipment for more than thirty years and it is all related to the fact that heat only moves to cold. The more heat the faster it moves in the beginning but as the two temperature get closer, the transfer becomes slower. If you just take the temperature spread and check the time to reach a desired point then it will look like the one with the higher temp will get there faster. In practical application, cold water has less Btu's to remove than hot water so less energy will be expended to get it to freeze. BTW, most of the work to freeze is accomplished at the point of freezing where only the change of state is effected, not the temperature. Enough of that! I have caught Humboldt squid and never could get the cleaning part down. I know that if the inner and outer membrane is removed, it is wonderful. I have been told that it can be done much like filleting a fish. I am still trying to find out if that is true before I get another 10 pounds in the freezer, which I have since used for crab bait.
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bahiatrader
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Posted: Wed Feb 27th, 2008 11:04 pm |
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OF COURSE, DON'T PAY ANY ATTENTION TO SCIENCE.
That's why the US is behind all the other industrialized nations in the world in math and science. That's why money is leaving the US at an unprecedented rate. The US will probably dry up and blow away because we can't figure out a way to live without fossil fuels. Mexican kids do calculus in the ninth grade, as a requirement, not an elective. I'm sorry, I don't believe in magic, but I'll still probably die happy. I think the calamari has been beat enough that it's probably tender enough to gum it down without chewing it at all.
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beegees2
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Posted: Thu Feb 28th, 2008 05:34 am |
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Yes, they were huge Humbolt Squid. They leapt on the hooks on that day, mid February, just Rapelas, almost at any depth maybe 5 or 6 miles out. When I cleaned them I peeled off the outside skin. It can be cleaned off by hand. The intestinal membrane is removed by knife because it has some cartilage in it. When cleaned you will end up with a nice slab of white meat probably 18 in by 18 in, thick, white, and odorless, probably a great source of protein and not that much more difficult to filet than any other fish. It is great to serve as a treat to visitors either as a main course or an appetiser.
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Divecoz
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Posted: Thu Feb 28th, 2008 06:44 am |
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bahiatrader wrote: OF COURSE, DON'T PAY ANY ATTENTION TO SCIENCE.
That's why the US is behind all the other industrialized nations in the world in math and science. That's why money is leaving the US at an unprecedented rate. The US will probably dry up and blow away because we can't figure out a way to live without fossil fuels. Mexican kids do calculus in the ninth grade, as a requirement, not an elective. I'm sorry, I don't believe in magic, but I'll still probably die happy. I think the calamari has been beat enough that it's probably tender enough to gum it down without chewing it at all.
Hold on there you have a few facts eschewed and some you've lost all together.
Your a man of science? Then give me facts.
Which nations are we behind ? Then why do all the G8 Countries and a whole lot of 3rd world countries send their kids here to school and we seldom to never send ours there?
Why is the money leaving the USA ? Because many US citizens would fore-go this country if they as consumers can save 15 cents !!!
Thank You Richard Nixon he opened up Trade with China and Thank You Wal Mart they exploited them.
Other jobs have left because crooked politicians have written laws rewarding US Companies for leaving this country and taking jobs to 3 rd world nations. Even more jobs have Left here so Companies can pay those at the VERY TOP 2 to 50 times what they made before by reducing the cost of labor having no concern for the Environment without directly increasing profits to stock holders. Are you catching on here yet? Can you spell greed and your getting screwed. Have you yet to figure out that the economy in the USA is in big trouble as well? Then You could be our President too.
Mexican kids doing calculus as a requirement in 9th grade who do you think are your kidding? Have you visited a Mexican Public School? I think not ......
Oil dependent yes we are and that fact alone shoots your statements above right in the foot. What would you have us do? Lets just address production of Electricity.
Solar hahahaha Wind hahahahahahhhaha Hydro hahahahaahahahahahaahaahaa
Being as your a man of Science I need not explain why non of those three are in the mix right now. Newclure hahahaha Power? How can we sell America on that when our President cannot even pronounce it.
AS for the topic of Calamari? Much, well at least some, of this thread has been very interesting.
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