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Dave Harcourt
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Posted: Fri Jun 9th, 2006 03:17 pm |
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I am interested in a “Fisherpersons Association”. I believe that a group of interested persons could have an influence on the fishing authorities in Mexico if the Association was all inclusive. Inclusive means Mexicans too and other fishing ports of the Sea of Cortez and including the long line Pangeros.
I am seeking other opinions.
We all know that the regulations could use some improvement. We all know that scooping all the sardines into cans devastates the pelagic catch. We all know that the biomass of the Sea of Cortez is steadily reducing.
Do you as a fishing person believe that we can do something about it?
I have no other agenda here and no interest in becoming involved in the management. I just believe that it is time for some action before the fishing collapses.
Let’s hear it from all viewpoints now.
Dave Harcourt
“Cobia”
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Kiwi
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Posted: Fri Jun 9th, 2006 07:29 pm |
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Many, many people in the past eight or so years have tried to do something about the fishing "regulations" and fishing in general in this area. Several "associations" were formed and they came and went out of frustration. They worked with people in the Baja Sur area and also around the Mazatlan area and those two areas seem to have gotten "their act together" and things are changing. However, in this area, in the past promises were broken and the government didn't think it was important enough. Recently, as of May 26th, Govenor Bours held a meeting and is trying to hold monies spent for fishing licenses and boat permits in this area but whether it will work or not remains to be seen. He declared Billfish and Dorado only for sportsfishing but we have heard that over and over before and no one from the government will enforce the declaration - never has and who knows if they ever will. There seems to be some confusion of how much of the money will be held in Sonora and what it will be used for - my understanding is tourism - ? The same people who fight against change somehow continue to remain in office and speak out of both sides of their mouth. I personally beleive that the government is "fully" aware of the "true" situation here and it will be a "waiting game" to see what if anything is done.
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bartmanaz
Administrator
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Posted: Fri Jun 9th, 2006 09:23 pm |
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I absolutely agree with Kiwi. I and many others were members of the Amigos del Mar de Cortez which tried for some time to get the dollars used for licenses, permits etc used to police the fishery. Did not happen on a wide spread basis. Did not stop the long lines or commercial exploitation of what are supposed to be reserved as sport or game fish. Keep running into the problem of how to protect the sport fish and at the same time allow the small pangero commercial fisherman to feed their families. I do not know the answer to that one.
What i do know is that as sport fisherman it is our responsibility to use the resource wisely and protect the fishery. Catching more than our limits, not releasing the small ones, not releasing the billfish are all examples of things we should not be doing and should not tolerate from our fellow sport anglers.
Bart
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Dave Harcourt
Member
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Posted: Sat Jun 10th, 2006 12:30 pm |
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Well isn’t that frustrating?
The two organizations that are having some success need to be contacted and maybe we should join with them. Somehow we have to make some sort of attempt to save our sport. Do we know how to contact those groups? If they are having some success then that alone is proof that something can be done. There have been rule changes in East Cape I know for sure.
There has to be a way to get to the authorities who control the fishery. One avenue for sure is if the voice we speak with is loud enough to be heard. I believe an organization that covers the entire pacific side would be heard.
How do we find out what the Sonora politicos are thinking? Is their activity a money/power grabbing exercise or is it saving the fishery?
Have any of the local organizations survived and if so who heads them?
Dave
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Dave Harcourt
Member
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Posted: Sat Jun 10th, 2006 01:08 pm |
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Mexico is not unique in its incompetence in fishery management.
I will give three other examples.
In the early 80’s the Alaskan fishery management gave license to the Japanese to harvest Herring roe. The Japanese efficiency at doing this was nothing short of amazing. They devastated the herring population. The Salmon industry teetered on collapse for a few years as a result. Severe restrictions went into place to prevent it and hatcheries were built all over the northwest. In the last few years salmon are making a recovery.
Jack Mackerel invaded in the absence of Herring and frustrate sport fishing today.
In Southern California the White Sea Bass were over fished by both the commercial and sport fish groups and the population was wiped out. The only viable solution was a hatchery which was built and now White Sea Bass populations are recovering.
In Newfoundland the Cod industry did collapse. This was primarily a commercial over fishing problem. All Cod fishing was stopped. Sample fishing is underway now after about 10 years of no fishing. Recovery is underway. They are frustrated in that offshore in international waters, other countries long range fishing fleets did not stop.
Collapses do occur and in most cases they can be fixed or saved.
I am not suggesting that the Dorado fishing is about to collapse, I simply am not qualified to make that call. I do know and it is not my imagination that the numbers are not what they used to be and there are a lot more fisherpersons chasing them, both commercial and sport fishing.
We cannot surrender to the inevitable without a fight. We cannot stand by and let it collapse and call ourselves sportsmen.
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bartmanaz
Administrator
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Posted: Sat Jun 10th, 2006 02:43 pm |
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I do not know about the Mazatlan group but one organization that numbers among it supporters some of the best anglers on the west coast is Seawatch. Visit their web site at http://www.seawatch.org and judge for yourself.
Bart
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Dave Harcourt
Member
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Posted: Sat Jun 10th, 2006 03:57 pm |
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A bit militant and some of their moves have been counter productive. (Seawatch)
Maybe that is what it takes but their involvement in some sport fishing closure actions bothers me.
Just getting Mexico to enforce their laws now would be a major victory.
Dave
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Kiwi
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Posted: Sat Jun 10th, 2006 04:00 pm |
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The Mazatlan area was successful because it had as it's leader the owner of El Cid Resorts who was able to get the politicos to pay attention. He was advising and working with Amigos del Mar de Cortez at the time but for some unknown reason his "clout" did not reach this area. I'm not sure but think that the Pesca authorities in Sonora operate differently that in other areas. You will have to read "between the lines" on that statement. You do know that in April the pongas organized and wanted Dorado to be legal for longlines. They were unable to get the permits but quite a few went fishing anyway as they always do. I have read many articles over many years in many different magazines concerning the sportsfishing and commercial overfishing in the Sea of Cortez but these articles have not reached the authorities or if they have they were ignored. I agree with Bart concerning "what to do with the pangeros" They earn their living from the Sea and the motto is "if I don't get it (the fish) today then someone will get them tomorrow". Several years ago - off the coast here - there were several instances where pongeros and sportsfisherman "clashed" so other than trying to release the turtles on the longlines the sportsfisherman are now using the longlines as a source to "find the fish" and fill their own boxes. Since it is illegal to catch Turtles - even tho you can purchase turtle meat at most "fish camps" one of the things sportsfisherman should be doing is taking pictures of turtles on longlines and turning those pictures into Vince Radice at Sonoran Sports Center. If enough people did this I believe it will give him a podium inwhich he and others could fight the battle from.
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Dave Harcourt
Member
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Posted: Sat Jun 10th, 2006 06:21 pm |
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Every politico listens to someone. We just have to find out who.
I do believe the head spokesperson should be Mexican. I think they would be offended at Norte Americanos coming down and telling them how to do their job.
We would have to deal with the income issue of the pangeros who long line. If we can solve that then the other issues disolve.
I know of no hatchery program in Mexico and if license fees were used to generate hatchlings of some sort or another that could be very useful. In the hatchery program in Southern California they have appox 100 remote sea pens to raise the white sea bass to a size large enough to release. Perhaps we can make fish feeders out of long liners.
California funded and funds their program via license stamps at $2.50 each I think.
Enforcement must be an issue with the commerical hogs who are operating illegally.
I still think it can be done.
Dave
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Kiwi
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Posted: Sat Jun 10th, 2006 07:29 pm |
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I agree with you concerning the biggest problem of all - the issues of the pangeros who longline. If this can be solved then hatcherys would not be needed because the female dorado who is very prolific, especially in her first year of life, could spawn to her hearts content and grow and grow and grow. There was a hatchery program started at Presa El Novillo east of Hermosillo for bass. The tanks were built, the well was dug , the fish were brought in from Florida, etc. etc. etc. All paid for by Americans I might add and the whole shooting match went South. The wells went dry, the tanks leaked, etc. so the fish were dumped in the Lake. The shrimp farming that is going on is working to a certain extent so salt water hatcheries probably wouldn't be a problem with enough money and personal but if the limit and size are "set and inforced" on dorado then again, they would not be needed. One year the local tournament events decided to weigh in only male dorado but then everyone took a look at all females being caught by the longlines so that idea went out the window. Alot of ideas and groups addressing this problem have "gone out the window" due to the frustration of no follow up action.
Yes, it can be done if the right politico is contacted and has the desire. Remember this is an election year so no one is going to be bothered with this issue now. Also remember you may think you are getting the right politico only to have them turn tail on you. This has happened numerous times. Think Bours is on the right track but needs to be brought up to date frequently and willing to fight the higher powers.
For now, I honestly think that pictures of turtles on longlines - alot of pictures - will get some attention and give the effort a "kick-start".
Right now I'm in a "holding mode" to see what becomes of the monies collected by the Oficina de Convendiones y Visitantes vs. the Pesca office. It is not clear of their intent so we will keep our fingers crossed and wait. The word is getting out to buy your license and boat permit there but the Pesca office is pushing hard to try and get people to buy from them so we'll see............
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gbates
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Posted: Sun Jun 11th, 2006 02:45 am |
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Maybe someone should speak to Mexico Mel as he does not seem to follow regulations.....42 dorado are a little over the limit!
Let's hope he was just telling a "fish story"!
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mexicomelklein
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Posted: Mon Jun 12th, 2006 05:36 am |
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| No, there wer 20 fishinerman on the boat. We are now doing an in depth investigation to determine which of these 20 men/women exceeded the limit. We had 42 dorado so someone had to either bring in 3 or 4. We'll find the culprit and punish him, or her.
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jcinid
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Posted: Tue Jun 13th, 2006 08:13 pm |
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| I have seen your boat Mel. There is no way the M&M will hold 20 fisherpersons!
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mexicomelklein
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Posted: Tue Jun 13th, 2006 09:12 pm |
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| Who said we were on M & M? I didn't!
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dmcauley
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Posted: Tue Jun 13th, 2006 09:43 pm |
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I only read this forum to gain new information for future trips-It seems that there is always someone looking to pick a fight on any forum and this one seems no different.
The forum would be a much better place if there was no name calling or insinuating-what ever!!
i enjoy this forum and thought maybe it was time 2 add my 2 cents
Last edited on Tue Jun 13th, 2006 09:45 pm by dmcauley
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Kiwi
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Posted: Tue Jun 13th, 2006 10:04 pm |
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There was no "name calling", etc. until you know who jumped in. The dialogue was on the up and up and the conversation was very informative and then you know who had to add his two-cents or whatever. Why, Why does "he" have to ruin all the forums????????
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DiveUrge
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Posted: Sat Jun 17th, 2006 01:22 am |
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You guys should all know by now after years and years of crcking your heads against the wall (MX Govt) that the oly thing that will get their attention is $$$$$.
Somehow I doubt the longlines are entirely to blame. The sardine catch seems more plausible. Whatever the case, the way to get this solved is to stick 'em where they're gonna feel it - in their pocket books.
Take the sportfishing boats out and watch the gov't enforce the existing laws and sink the trawlers...
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bartmanaz
Administrator
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Posted: Mon Jun 19th, 2006 03:46 pm |
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I've followed this thread and the other on financial pressure with great interest. This is bascially a repeat of the post I made there. I must say that this is exactly the type of exchange I envisioned when we started the message board. My compliments to all who have contributed.
Let me share some thoughts on how to move forward on this. I base this on my own experience as a board member of the Amigos del Mar de Cortez and as their webmaster. The organization was a bi-national one who's goal was to ensure a healthy marine eco system and sustainable management practices to insure the long term viability of the fishery for all the stakeholders-commercial and recreational. To the best of my knowledge the organization still exists but in hiatus. I will follow up on that and advise.
The key concept that the Amigos focused on was "user benefit, user pay". The intent was to use the proceeds from the sale of boat permits and licenses to fund enforcement capability for the management of the fishery. I understand that has been done with some success in Baja and perhaps elsewhere in Mexico. The other aspect was to use these funds for education and retraining for those who might be displaced from commercial fishing by enforcement action. Think both were worthy goals.
There are already organizations who are engaged in these kinds of actions, including the Billfish Foundation and others. Another possible avenue to pursue in this regard is the Arizona-Mexico Commissison of which I am a member. I will make some inquiries to see about the possiblity of bringing this issue to light under the auspices of the Commission. If there is interest in reconsituting the Amigos del Mar de Cortez I am also willing to assist in that.
Thanx to all
Bart
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mexicomelklein
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Posted: Mon Jun 19th, 2006 05:07 pm |
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I happened to be at the Marina yesterday as some boats were coming in. One boat was American owned and had 3 American's on it. The other boat was Mexican owned and had 2 Mexicans aboard. I asked the Americans how they did and they showed me 16 Dorado thatr had been cleaned in the harbor. I asked why they cleaned them out there. The response was, "Mariuna Real does not have a cleaning station". The two Mexican brought in 10 Dorado. Does anybody obey the laws in Mexico?
A good example is where I live. I live at #65 Bahia. That's the corner house where you turn back to go to San Carlos proper. In front of my house is a stop sign. It has been there for as long as I can remember. I sit on my patio day and night and watch the cars zoom by. Not even the Police stop at the stop sign. People have knocked over telephone poles and piled into Jan's (Barracuda Bob"s) house. Again, doesn't anybody obey the laws?
When I took all the Dorado I did feel some guilt but, I was also happy that I could feed the orphans who hadn't had fish in a long time.
If any fisher person has dorado, or any fish, please bring the cleaned fish to my house. I have a large freezer and will accumulate the fish then take it to the orphanage.
MexicoMel
227.0071
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EZ MONY
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Posted: Mon Jun 19th, 2006 09:57 pm |
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| Bart-- Is John Brakey (sp) still involved in this project (amigos del mar de cortez) or did the whole thing go south?
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