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Dickrep
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Posted: Mon Dec 8th, 2008 03:35 pm |
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There have been multiple topics posted in the last few months on possible border crossing problems...as a result of the news of several drug shootouts in Nogales. I believe tourism in Sonora has been hurt with this bad press, and I am starting this new topic in the hope that ANYONE who has recently traveled to San Carlos will reply and give a good ( but honest) report. As reported today in the Arizona Daily Star, the U.S. Consul in Nogales felt it was necessary to list a travel advisory, but in fact no Americans (or Canadians) have been directly impacted by any of the drug crackdown activity in Nogales or Sonora.
We traveled into Mexico on Nov 22nd and returned on Monday after Thanksgiving..and it was an uneventful trip. The only difference from past trips was that we were stopped at the Federal Police checkpoint north of KM 21 (Visa office). They asked a few simple and polite questions and then waved us on. We were also pulled over on the way back at the Benjamin Hill drug checkpoint...and they let us go after a 5 minute (very cusory) check. I have a Surburban, which is probably one reason we sometimes get pulled over. I consider both of these checks as good news (as does the U.S. Consul)...as evidence of Mexico's commitment to cut down on drug traffic. Our friends came down on different days and also had an uneventful trip. The return crossing wait was about 45 minutes on Monday.
For those of you who are reading this and not familiar with the Nogales crossing, we recommend taking the Mariposa truck route. This completely bypasses Nogales and the only thing you will see is the outskirts of the city behind a 12 foot wire fence that borders this particular stretch of highway. Personally I have no fears of nighttime travel which we do frequently, but it is always better to travel in daylight if you should have a mechanical breakdown.
Please respond with your experience....Dick.
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Catch-22
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Posted: Mon Dec 8th, 2008 04:05 pm |
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Dick- I feel the same as you ..I also went to the States Over Thanksgiving, It was easier than ever. no problems at all. We were in a Mini Van and Just got waved Through all the check Points..I was The most nervous while in AZ.
I Can Only Guess That if you were in Down town Nogales at 2:00 In the morning you might find some trouble. Maybe not really sure? However coming in Via The Mariposa By-pass during day light hours .Well lets put it this way I HAVE NO FEAR AT ALL OF LETTING MY 2 COLLEGE AGE DAUGHTERS DRIVE DOWN HERE. Well I always worry about them but kidnapping in Mexico is not one of my concerns..
How about down town PHX. Or LA. at 2:00 in the morning ?? any travel advisory there ?
Steve
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bartmanaz
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Posted: Mon Dec 8th, 2008 05:50 pm |
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I concur with Dick and Steve. I traveled to San Carlos last week on Dec 4 via the Mariposa route with no problem at all. Return was Dec 5 via Imuris-Cananea-Naco, again with zero issues.
I've given a good bit of thought to the issues of safety and security while traveling in Mexico with all of the recent news regarding the drug wars. The conclusion that I have reached is that tourists are not a target of these groups. Their targets are other drug gangs and Mexican security forces. If you don't fall into one of those categories, you simply are not likely to be a victim of these crimes.
Follow some common sense guidelines and you'll be fine. Stay on main roads and toll roads. Avoid driving at night. Stay out of places you probably should not be anyway. Don't drink and drive. Don't check your common sense at the border.
Enjoy your trip to San Carlos.
Bart
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dflybldr
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Posted: Mon Dec 8th, 2008 06:16 pm |
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I have posted many times that I have not had any problems over the past three years and approx 20 trips. I tried somthing new this time at Benjamin Hill. The last couple of times I spoke my lousy spanish and they pulled me over for a quick check. No big deal. This time I spoke only english, smiled like I didn't understand any spanish, and they waved me through.
The only thing this last trip was that I was having some car problems. My fear was that I would break down in the US where no one ever stops to help! At least in Mexico someone will stop to make sure your OK. You can be dead on the side of the road in the US and no one will even dial 911, much less stop!
I hope the people who are unsure about going to San Carlos read this, not just those of who know better.
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No Sniveling
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Posted: Mon Dec 8th, 2008 06:58 pm |
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Dick,
I live in Rio Rico, 12KM from the border. My business is primarily with companies located in Mexico, so I am in Nogales MX every week. We have rented in San Carlos for 3 years and drive there 20 times a year. Since we began the purchase process on our home  ! we have been there 8 times in 12 weeks.
I frequently travel alone, but only in daylight hours. I just completed a trip from Rio Rico to San Carlos, ferried to Santa Rosalia, drove to San Vizcaino, then to Todos Santos, back to Santa Rosalia, ferried to Guaymas, home to Rio Rico, and back to San Carlos the next morning for Thanksgiving week. I stopped 10 times at Military Checkpoints and 8 times at Police Checkpoints. One of the Military Checkpoints cost me a roll of duct tape, but they offered to buy it first. I was checked by Military with drug dogs getting on, and off the ferry each time. There is an increased presence of Military Patrols on all of the highways - I passed one on my last business trip from Kino to Highway 15 (I think that is 16?).
Only once since the first reports of violence have I seen anything that caused me concern. When the US$ first shot up in value, I elected to park on the US side and walk to the nearest bank in Mexico. There were a number of people on the side streets in Nogales Mexico that just looked out of place - I took my pocket full of $$ and walked right back to the border crossing. I just didn't feel comfortable and I trust my feelings. The next day, while on business in Nogales MX, I drove into the paid parking lot at El Greco, walked past the security guards at Scotiabank, and converted $1500 into pesos. Once I am in my locked Avalanche, I feel quite secure and see no reason to feel otherwise.
I do a lot of driving in Nogales because I have to, but as a tourist, I stick to the toll road out of town. If anything, my business and the new house will mean more driving and not less. I am much more concerned about over-loaded vehicles and unsafe drivers on the road than being a victim of violence.
Enjoy Mexico, be alert and smart, and always remember...
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bartmanaz
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Posted: Mon Dec 8th, 2008 07:47 pm |
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I moved and edited this thread-of interest to all tourists.
Bart
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No Sniveling
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Posted: Tue Dec 9th, 2008 12:55 am |
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This was in the Tucson paper today - read in it's entirety to understand the political gobble-de-goop that goes into posting an advisory by the US goverment and Consulate!
By Brady McCombs
ARIZONA DAILY STAR
Tucson, Arizona | Published: 12.08.2008
Shortly after the U.S. Department of State issued a Mexico travel alert with warnings of drug-related violence in Sonora, the U.S. consul in Nogales was asked for advice by a member of his church.
"She says, 'Brother Dinkelman, my parents are visiting and we have a time share in San Carlos that we were all planning to go to with my kids next week, but you've got this travel advisory and I don't know what to do,'" said the consul, John Dinkelman, recalling the e-mail. "I wrote her back and said, 'Dear sister, enjoy the beach.' "
He also recommended that they be more aware of their surroundings and avoid traveling at night between urban areas. A week and a half later, the woman approached Dinkelman at church.
"She says, "Oh, we had a wonderful time, and you know the beach was just empty,' " Dinkelman said. "I was very happy for her, but I was also saddened because her line that the beach was empty was in a way to me a message that fewer people are willing to take responsibility for their own safety and would rather just blow it off and not go.
"Therein lies the rub," Dinkelman said. "When people go on vacation, they don't want to worry about personal safety. . . . Sadly, in the world we live in, this is not the case. People get killed all the time in violence around the world, including in the United States. . . . What we are seeing now, unfortunately in the Arizona-Sonora area, is that this risk is starting to affect what used to be considered our own safe little backyard."
The warnings were included to ensure that U.S. citizens are fully aware of increased risks associated with the rising tide of drug-related violence in the region, not to tell people what to do, he said.
"Our job is not to stop you from doing something. It is to make sure your decision to do something or not to do something is a fully informed one," Dinkelman said. "The people of Tucson have every right, as long as the Mexican government allows them, to come anywhere in Mexico they want to come."
But while he emphasizes that the alert isn't a stop sign at the border, he stands by the department's decision to add Nogales to the alert alongside notoriously dangerous cities such as Tijuana, Ciudad Juarez and Laredo due to the irrefutable rise in bloodshed.
The 2008 body count in the border city has exceeded 100, more than double the 2007 total and triple the 2006 total. On Thursday alone, three people were gunned down and killed in Nogales, including one man in front of dozens of people at the Estrella Blanca bus stop located one block east of the U.S. Consulate in Nogales, Sonora.
During an interview last week at his office at the U.S. Consulate in Nogales, Sonora, Dinkelman, who has been consul in Nogales, Sonora, since August 2007, discussed the violence and travel alert in depth. Here are some excerpts from the conversation:
About the Department of State's decision to include Nogales in the new Mexico travel alert:
"When we sense an increase in Americans victimized in violence situations or when we ourselves are experiencing a change from the norm, we coordinate that through an extensive network of security officers and consulate officers to make sure the information is standardized. Every six months we have issued some sort of travel notification to American citizens. The only thing that happened different on Oct. 15 that didn't happened April 15 or the October before was that Nogales happened to be mentioned and everybody locally went, 'Well, why is this?' The reality is that we have seen an increase in violence throughout the area. . . . As we see violence increasing south of the border we have a responsibility to make sure that the uninformed American who is considering traveling here be as fully informed as possible.
"It would be a dereliction of our duty to not let American citizens know what we were sensing as to what was going on in those areas."
On what factors play into deciding what to include in a travel alert:
"It is literally a tightrope. And, as a public servant in a post-9/11 environment, I feel that weight very strongly because the last thing I want is for an American citizen to fall in harm's way and be able to credibly say nobody made an attempt to tell me that what I was about to do was dangerous. That's terrible. But, at the same time, we live in a free society and the last thing I want is to stop someone from doing whatever it is they choose to do. So, the fine line, the tightrope, is providing you, the media, or the American citizen who has the ability to go online and research for him or herself, to get all that information possible and make an informed decision."
On how much the Department of State weighs potential effects on tourism or local commerce in issuing alerts:
"Of course we have to weigh it, but everything has to be subordinated to the safety of our citizens. If it's a choice of making sure the restaurateur on the beach at spring break has enough business or that those American students are fully informed and safe — what should we choose? It's not my choice; I am simply a public servant making the information available. . . . My colleagues in Tijuana or Ciudad Juarez and throughout all the cities in Mexico and frankly throughout the entire world have the same responsibility, and we are in it together. The unique situation here is that unlike my colleague who sits in Durbin, South Africa, and is worried about a different situation of safety for the Americans who travel 20 hours by plane to get to his district, mine are simply people who may just want to go lunch for an hour and a half. And so, the casual nature of the visitor to Northern Sonora is much different, compounded of course by the familiarity. How many thousands of people in Tucson know a nice restaurant just south of the border? And, when they have a visitor come from New York or Chicago, they say, 'Hey let's go to Mexico for the afternoon, buy a couple trinkets, do something fun and we'll bring you back.' . . ."
Have there been any U.S. citizens harmed by drug violence in Nogales:
"Americans walking down the street who happen to be in a gunfight — no. Americans driving down the road and perhaps having to hear something — unquestionably. There are just too many Americans running around Nogales to where someone is not going to be affected. (But) harmed (knocks on wooden table), not yet."
On the reaction he has received since the alert came out on Oct. 14:
"There has been some reaction locally from north of the border which was, 'Oh, we are afraid we are never going down here again,' which was just as dismaying (for the reasons I cited with my friend from church) as the press, dare I say pooh-poohing it a bit as being an overreaction a bit on our part. It's in the middle. Things are worse. Is there chaos south of the border? Definitely not. Are things the way they were in 1955? Definitely not? But are things as peaceful in Tucson as they were in 1955? I dare say not, either. Our job is simply to make sure that everyone is aware of that."
On how the rising violence and subsequent alert has affected residents in Nogales, Sonora:
They are under considerable mental stress, Dinkelman said. That's because they are suffering from a three-pronged effect: fewer visitors, a bad economy and increased drug violence.
"There are a few hundred thousand very good, very decent, honest, normal, working Nogalenses who live in this city who are confronted with these three things. . . business is bad, violence is increasing and our neighbors no longer come to visit because they are scared of what is going on in our town."
On the efforts by Mexican President Felipe Calderón to discourage the drug cartels:
"I applaud them. I stand up, I cheer, give me pompoms. The Mexican government is going to heroic lengths to fight what is an ongoing threat to both of our nations. They are doing us the honor of putting themselves on the line in a battle in which we are both continuously engaged."
On his own worries for his wife and children:
"My wife takes the children to school in Arizona every day and drives them home every day, and along her pathways to and from our home in Nogales there have been various acts of violence at various levels of severity. Am I concerned about her and my children? Of course I am. Am I also concerned about her and the children on Interstate 19? Yes. Did I call my wife who was at the Tucson Mall a few weeks ago when somebody was shot by the Oro Valley police in front of the Wal-Mart? Of course, because she was two blocks away. But the funny thing is, as Americans, I think we blow off a little bit more the violence at the Wal-Mart as being part and parcel of life, but because there is violence south of the border we might take that as a little bit more intimidating, which we should. We should be scared — I don't want anyone dropping dead because they are in the wrong place at the wrong time. I think keeping it a realistic analysis as to what's going on is critical. That's what the travel advisory is for, to let people be informed about what's going on, and choose what to do."
On the future of the conflict:
"I'm not going to even try and act as a prophet and tell you where this is going. I can tell you that as the violence continues, the consulate will remain vigilant in reporting what is going on here and coordinating with our sister consulates and our embassy to make sure citizens in the United States are given a completely clear picture of the true level of violence in Mexico. We are not swayed by any other factor than the potential threat to the American citizen, because that is our job."
● Contact reporter Brady McCombs at 573-4213 or bmccombs@azstarnet.com.
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Rikki Tikki
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Posted: Tue Dec 9th, 2008 10:17 pm |
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To everybody reading this thread, their safety, and an enjoyable trip south, should not be suspended by the violence being reported in Nogales, Sonora. All of the above information is correct. Stay out of downtown Nogales, Sonora after dark is the best tip. Do not run around with any known drug lords, or government officials that have pissed off the other side! These are the targets that are being killed/assasinated.Tourists are not the targets of these drug cartels that are battling for territory, and have more firepower than do the local police. Once the drugs are legalized (LOL), the violent atmosphere will dissipate, just like booze and prohibition, and then government can tax the right people, instead of the working stiff, that must bear the burden of maintaining security. How many border patrol does it take to secure the frontera between the USA and Mexico? And at what cost? Every third person in Nogales works for Homeland security it seems, as border patrol, customs, etc. and it's these persons that help the local economy, that surely would be a lot worse if their paychecks weren't being spent locally! And they don't shop in Nogales, Sonora for obvious reasons, and only a few would venture south of the border! So the tourist market in Sonora is feeling the pinch, whether it be Nogales, Rocky Point, San Carlos, etc.
I just was down in San Carlos the second week in November, and other than a few locals that live there, and 200 kids from University of Arizona sororities and fraternities, I saw a big decrease in the usual tourist haunts, and the Islandfest concerts that I went down for, that were affected also by the lack of the usual Parrotheads, thinking twice about the security alerts, and crossing the border. But overall I blame the economy, and hope it is sooner than later, that everything gets back to some sort of normalcy that we have come to expect when we vacation or even go across the border for dinner and a little shopping!
Rick
Rikki Tikki Karaoke
Nogales, Arizona
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Mike
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Posted: Wed Dec 10th, 2008 12:00 am |
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Kind of reminds me of the scene when Butch and Sundance are debating jumping off the cliff, Sundance confesses he can't swim and Butch laughs and replies "Hell the fall will probably kill you!"
What I mean is, a lot of us go to San Carlos to sail, dive, spearfish, kite-sail, water ski.... you get the idea. Danger is where you find it.
My mom lives in Tucson and I always stop in and see her on my way to San Carlos. One of her favorite (bless her heart) conversations when I visit is the topic of how bad things are getting in Mexico. I always say "Mom, there are places in this country where I wouldn't go after dark. And places I wouldn't go at any time, even armed!" She gets the point. Tucson has a pretty high murder rate.
No doubt, there are some very dangerous people in Mexico. And some places are very dangerous for everyone and anyone. All I can say is with the exception of a few drunken Americans, I've never met anyone in San Carlos, or anywhere else I've been in Mexico, that I considered dangerous. Wish I could say the same thing over here.
I usually go to SC alone. Fear of being targeted by criminals is there but usually leaves around the time I get to the first toll booth south of the border. Fear of getting lost at sea or shipwrecked on the Sea of Cortez is there, and it usually leaves when I cast off the last line.
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Vince Radice
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Posted: Wed Dec 10th, 2008 12:43 am |
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As far as downtown Nogales goes I almost always go through downtown now since I visit family who now live there. I have never ever had a problem going downtown. I was downtown just last week and a month before that I drove through downtown on my motorcycle at midnight. Never saw anything other than a hotdog vendor. No shoot outs and pretty much the same old Nogales that I have been passing through for 24 years now.
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Cacaquatero
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Posted: Wed Dec 10th, 2008 02:35 am |
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| I would like to say I recently concluded a 7 wk. trip to and from San Carlos by vehicle from the U.S. and crossed at Mariposa. I had no problems what so ever with the Mexican officials I encounter at various check pts. they were very courteous and seemed glad we were choosing to be guests in their country, I would also say that ithe U.S customs an Immigration officials were not so great, they were robo cops to the top and treated us like, if we choose to visit Mexico we were common criminals, just looking to get around their authority.
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phingv06
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Posted: Fri Dec 12th, 2008 08:45 pm |
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Been to SC at least 10 times in the last 3 months crossing at mariposa. I have gotten the Red light several times and even with my pickup loaded to the gills have I been hassled or treated discourteosly.
When I am asked about the contents of my pickup I tell the flat truth, all clothing,linens,kitchenware,bedding etc. are for the needy families that live in the San carlos area.
It is really bad the rumors that for some reason seem to be going around at this time however whenever I challenge someone on the facts I find that it is all hearsay.
Use common sense and visit San Carlos you will enjoy greatly and want to return as soon as possible.
Phinney
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phingv06
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Posted: Fri Dec 12th, 2008 08:46 pm |
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That's "never" been hassled.
Phinney
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barato
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Posted: Fri Dec 12th, 2008 10:34 pm |
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Fear of being targeted by criminals is there but usually leaves around the time I get to the first toll booth south of the border. Fear of getting lost at sea or shipwrecked on the Sea of Cortez is there, and it usually leaves when I cast off the last line.
Eloquently and accurately stated. i travel solo to SC roughly every month via either Nogales or Douglas/Agua Prieta, driving much of the trip after dark. i've never had anything occur which made me even a little bit nervous, and find that i feel comfortable as soon as i'm abt 1 km south of border in Nog (or immediately in AP).
i have never gotten even a hint of crime, have never had a gas station attendant try to stiff me other than some minor fudging on exchange rate, have never been stopped by a cop let alone hassled, and note a general absence of the competitive, confrontational attitudes that way too many folks on this side of border display. maybe because life is tougher there, Mexicans seem to display more of a live & let live, cooperate & help each other attitude than i see here outside of rural communities.
every Mexican cop, military person, Aduana inspector, etc i've ever had to deal with has been polite, professional, and far less interested into probing into your life than their US equivalents. i've had far more stuff stolen from my truck when it was parked downtown near my office (including the last truck) than i ever have in Mexico....which is not to say i don't try to secure things wherever i am. you could comfortably drive from Nogales, AZ to SC without knowing a single word of Spanish or having peso one in your pocket altho i find it easier converting some $ to pesos. as with some of the other posters in this thread, the only offical hassles i've gotten have been from our own beloved Customs & Border Patrol folks upon returning.
i have no illusions about humanity or that there are places in Mexico where it's crazy right now...i'm looking out the window at Ciudad Juarez, where we had over 28 murders last weekend and 1400 this year, so far, and usually tote a firearm when i travel in the US (if you don't already know, DO NOT do this in Mexico!). but nowhere on the route to SC, Nogales included, is anything like that, and even in Juarez, it ain't US tourists getting killed.
the main things i worry about on the trip:
1. the highway shoulders...in many places, you are likely to roll your vehicle if you go off the pavement & overcorrect, and high grass can hide the dropoff
2. the sea
3. the giant double trailer semis, and the traffic that stacks up behind em on 2-lane roads
4. getting through Hermosillo, even though it's gotten pretty easy now with the bypass route, esp near rush hours
5. the WAIT at the border on the way back
to anyone considering coming for the 1st time, do it. it's safer and easier than traversing most big US cities and a hell of a lot more fun. there's nowhere else you can as easily visit an exotic semitropical foreign port, and one that offers what i used to love about Key West and the Fla Keys generally before they got glitzified.
the myths and rumors one hears abt Mexico travel of late often remind me of an old, old Jimmy Buffett lyric:
it's just a Cuban crime of passion; messy and old fashioned
but that that's what the people like to read about
up in America.........
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alexpinca
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Posted: Fri Dec 12th, 2008 11:29 pm |
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| I came through Nogales on October 23rd. I understand that there was a gunfight in Nogales that very day; however, I came through Mariposa and not so much as a whiff of gunpowder. This was my first trip into Mexico for an extended stay and my first pulling a fifth wheel. I will admit to being just a little nervous; probably aggravated by the thorough inspection I received at about the 5 mile point. They had me completely off load my storage compartment under my fifth wheel, no small task. My fellow winter residents here in San Carlos tell me they’ve come for years and never experienced that level of inspection. Better that than banditos right? I reached k21, and I was very well treated and passed through after getting my FMT. I ran into a military stop around Benjamin Hill as I recall. He asked a few questions and I was on my way. All in all not such a bad experience with the exception of the customs stop 5 miles into Mexico. I know the issue of night driving pops up periodically, I for one will not drive Mexican highways at night unless it is urgent. Roads are a little too narrow pulling a fifthwheel and sharing the road with semi’s, animals on the road, road damage, and poor shoulders. However, if you must drive at night and you use just a little extra caution, you should be OK.
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mgwinaz
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Posted: Wed Dec 17th, 2008 07:29 pm |
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Hi,
We are from Tucson and aware of the travel alert. An alert is not a warning. We have traveled to San Carlos every year multiple times....
Has anyone heard of any problems traveling down Route 15 from Mariposa to San Carlos. We seeking to have a safe trip this holiday session and mom is concerned about the violence......
I have read the posts and know many people that sail and fish that go back and forth......
Thanks,
Mgw
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Rikki Tikki
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Posted: Wed Dec 17th, 2008 07:53 pm |
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Had a friend that went down last weekend, traveled at night because his girlfriend from Tucson had to work Friday, spent an extra 45 minutes going through city of Nogales, Sonora, got lost in Hermosillo trying to find something to eat, got to condo rental and couldn't find anybody with keys to let him in until 2:30 A.M. and said he had a blast! The line to return to USA was slow, but other than that no complaints.
Do as you usually do when traveling in a foreign country. Respect their laws, don't go out of your way to find trouble, allow yourself plenty of time for travel, and you won't notice any difference from your other trips down south of the border.
All these tips, previously mentioned should be heeded, and you'll have a great time!
Rick
Rikki Tikki Karaoke
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Master98
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Posted: Wed Dec 17th, 2008 11:12 pm |
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Amen, Amen, Amen! We come down from Tucson about once a month and it's now an easier and safer drive with the improvements to Hwy 15. We even go through Nogales downtown on the way back North since we now have a Sentri pass, but feel no more afraid than many places in the states.
Maybe we all need to encourage one "suspicious" friend to go down with us to help spread the word that it is safe to go to San Carlos. We love having the local businesses and restaurants be there and glad to see us when we come. Many are really hurting with the slowdown in tourism business. Combined with the slow economy and terrorism alerts, they could use our help in promoting San Carlos!
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Blueskys4ever
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Posted: Sun Dec 21st, 2008 03:08 pm |
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I travel to SC many times a year. These are the things I do to reduce exposure and risk of harm coming to myself or anyone in my group.
Make a convoy of cars. More than one car is almost impossible to hijack, so buddy up with friends.
Have communication between cars. I use the new midland GRS hand-held radio. Everyone knows what is up with everyone else in the group. People have fun with these.
Take a digital picture of everyone before you cross the border. Make one a portrait and one a fully body shot to demonstrate what the person is wearing. If someone comes up missing, these pictures will be extremely valuable to local law enforcement. Shoot a photo of all cars from the back making sure you get the plate number.
If you observe a convoy of several mexican plated vehicles traveling if close formation, put some distance between your group and theirs. They are a high value target and we are not. So why expose yourself to potential crossfire.
Gas up in non-metropolitan areas. Avoid stopping in intercity areas.
Don't drink so much that you lose situtional awareness. Observe what in going on around you and your friends.
Have fun in Mexico. The vast majority of Mexicans remain great folks.
Last edited on Sun Dec 21st, 2008 03:12 pm by Blueskys4ever
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hotdogbob
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Posted: Sun Dec 21st, 2008 04:04 pm |
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| blueskyforever you sound pretty organized or just plain paranoid. you yanks always were a paranoid bunch! I realize I havent been there in over 10 years but has it really come to that???? I,d love to hear from canadians and there views or encounted problems. I,ve camped all over Mexico in my camper alone mind you I had a german shepered that was in charge of security.ha-haVery few problems.
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