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PK
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Posted: Sat Sep 16th, 2006 06:20 am |
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LimeyLInda wrote: Dear dgt
Perhaps you make too many assumptions. Having had to put fresh cardboard in my shoes every morning to fill the holes; maybe I have "walked in his shoes" Having started work to help support my family at age 13, having not owned a pair of jeans until I was 16 years old. Built my first bike at age 10 from scrap parts. Sometimes dinner was two slices of bread and some lard. I could go on but I will not. Being a kid in post WW11 Europe was the pits. Also, I have no intent on judging anyone.
Regards, LL
BS, BS, BS, BS. Don't youuuu believe it!!!
This is the same guy that keeps posting on the SC message board even though he has been to SC "1' time!
BS, BS, BS.
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LimeyLInda
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Posted: Sat Sep 16th, 2006 07:05 pm |
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Hi PK
Please check. You have a polite PM
Regards, Linda
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beegees2
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Posted: Sun Sep 17th, 2006 12:15 am |
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| what does that mean?
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PK
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Posted: Sun Sep 17th, 2006 02:00 am |
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It means what I said is true, and this weirdo with "zero" ties to SC continues play on these boards for some bizarre reason.
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beegees2
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Posted: Sun Sep 17th, 2006 03:05 am |
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| No, I mean, ...what does a "POLITE PM" mean?
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PK
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Posted: Sun Sep 17th, 2006 11:51 am |
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Come on, you have seen the typical "polite" PM's LL has forwarded to others. Just think back to the nice words he used towards AcuDoc, and you need not think further.
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bartmanaz
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Posted: Sun Sep 17th, 2006 01:12 pm |
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PM means Private Message
Bart
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Mangopop
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Posted: Mon Sep 18th, 2006 09:26 am |
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FB, I'm not sure, from your post, if you're argueing for or against illegals in the US....? Because it seems to me, after reading the article you posted, that we are sorely in need of illegal immigrant resources. Because if we weren't, than the population of them being deported wouldn't have caused this whole town in the article, to come to such a "standstill" or slow down, or whatever.
I mean, American workers should have been filling that void....right? And yet, they, the American workers, weren't there to fill it. So, anyone here, in the USA, should have been anxiously arriving to fill those positions that those illegal "Mexican" immigrants were leaving, and yet,.... where are the American workers so anxious to fill those positions? ....Am I right in my perception of this?
I'm just trying to understand why a whole town of industry would come to a standstill because illegal immigrants were being deported. It seems that might mean that there were never, in the first place, enough Americans who actually wanted the jobs.
To me it seems that, we act like we want the jobs, initially, and then when all industry stops because of "illegal" workers, we, as Americans, don't actually step up when jobs are "suddenly" available that have been vacated by immigrant workers.
I do, understand about wanting to make a "living" wage also. But, if we do have a desperate American population, and we know do, then why aren't these desperate Americans stepping into these vacant positions? And whose fault is it if they are not? Is it mine, or yours, or theirs?
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Mangopop
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Posted: Mon Sep 18th, 2006 10:17 am |
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9mm brings up an excellent point about taxes. I'm not an accountant so I don't know....how much of my taxes, as a US citizen, go towards illegal immigrants...? I really don't know. I welcome anyone that can tell me truthfully. Because I really don't know.
Has anyone here broken down their own personal taxes enough to know exactly what portion goes towards illegal immigration? I'm serious. I'm not trying to be fecitious. I really want to know.
I know that a certain "portion" of my tax money is supposed to go towards social services. However, I also know, that my federal tax payment also goes for emergency services, the military budget (non-emergency), social security, medical subsidies, subsidies for food, etc. But, I don't honestly know what percentage of my own personal income, in taxes, goes where. And, I know I pay for "things" that help ensure our countries well-being but, I don't know exactly how my personal tax budget is spent.
Do you know, really, where your tax money goes? I mean, exactly? And, I mean, specifically, YOUR tax money? Your own money? Not some governmental breakdown they told you your money goes to? But your personal money...where does it actually go?
I'm just sayin', I don't know myself. How much of my money is going towards illegal Mexican immigrants? How much to American bums born and living here already?
And, of course, in light of illegal wars, less than deserving American welfare recipients, (there are many), and paying farmers to "not" grow subsidies, how much of MY tax money is actually going to those that really deserve my support?
Just want to know. If anyone can give me answers, I'm all ears.
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FB
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Posted: Mon Sep 18th, 2006 04:52 pm |
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Mangopop wrote: FB, I'm not sure, from your post, ........
I mean, American workers should have been filling that void....right? ...........
where are the American workers so anxious to fill those positions? ....Am I right in my perception of this?
..........., enough Americans who actually wanted the jobs.
................vacated by immigrant workers.
I do, understand about wanting to make a "living" wage .........
Lets think about it a minute... the article clearly states that the "factory" had to raise the salary to attract "legal" employees... not being well informed, but only hearing rumors... it appears that the "illegal immigrants" work for less then the co-called "LIVING" wage.....
if you annalize what the illegal immigrants will accept for paymet, the problem becomes more clear... most of the "employers" know that the "illegal" workers will work for less, in exchange for not being turned in!!!!!!!
this is clearly only a WIN for the employeer.... the profits are higher,, and the workers are being taken advantage of....
ANYONE who is actrually supporting the immigrant's right to work should also support a LEGAL way for it to happen.. this would eliminate many in-humane conditions both sides of the "fence"...
Seeing this from another view is interesting..... in the sciences, there are many companies in the USA who advertise for foreign workers... and get them "sponsored" to take TEC jobs.. Why? to gain a "competitive" hand... I have seen it form my former employeer.. they would get foreign workers for 60% of what it costs for a US worker. The companies are driven by PROFITS at every level...
Do some research.. the "illegal" immigration is not limited to the FGARM or FACTORY workers.. it is at all levels.
My former employer advertised in INDIA, and other low income countries. The anxious workers arrived, on tourist visas, worked in the offices, where countless US workers were "laid" off .............. all to run a company at a better profit margin.
These foreign workers were ILLEGALLY working in the US. These companies get away with it day after day... Year after Year... and it is not limited to any ethnic group..
Mexican labors are cheap.. they WALK to the US. At other levels the CHINESE are being smuggled into many places in the US... it is the same story over and over again...
The result?
More US people with low incomes...
More on "assistance"
More strain on TAXES and SOCIAL SECURITY
and the motive?
PROFITS..
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peg
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Posted: Mon Sep 18th, 2006 06:15 pm |
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FB wrote: the article clearly states that the "factory" had to raise the salary to attract "legal" employees... not being well informed, but only hearing rumors... it appears that the "illegal immigrants" work for less then the co-called "LIVING" wage.....The result?
More US people with low incomes...
More on "assistance"
More strain on TAXES and SOCIAL SECURITY
and the motive?
PROFITS..
FB.....not exactly. The article says the company raised it's starting wage by $1 per hour. One employee changed jobs to earn $7.75. That means the job previously paid $6.75. But $6.75 is more than the $5.60 she was earning at Wal Mart. Why didn't she change jobs sooner? Coud it be that the "illegal immigrant" was a better, more qualified worker at a higher wage. Actually there is not enough meaningful information in the article to draw any meaningful conclusions.
There is some Mexican bashing going on in this thread and that is unfortunate and unacceptable. It is nothing more than good old fashioned prejudice. I AM IN FAVOR OF FIXING THE "ILLEGAL" WORKER ISSUE, REGARDLESS OF WHAT COUNTRY THEY ARE FROM, BUT DISCRIMINATION IS NOT THE ANSWER.
FB response raises two issues (well actually more)
1. The real problem is not "illegal" workers , but companies like Wal Mart that pay substandard wages to "legal" workers. Let's all boycott Wal Mart until they start paying their employees a realistic living wage and health insurance. Let's all boycott Wal Mart until they stop purchasing goods from countries like China where there is no such thing as a minimum living wage. Let's demand that our government raise the federally mandated minimum wage that will pay workers a realistic living wage. And, by the way, FB, see your purchases go up by about 25% at Wal Mart and if the minimum wage goes up, watch you cost of living go up by at least 25% or more.
Everybody wants somebody to pay for a realistic minimum wage........as long as it doesn't come out of their personal pocket. The problem is that people want somebody else to fix the problems. It is always somebody else's responsibility. It is is easy to say that somebody should do something as long as it is not I!!!!!
If you think corporate America is making too much money, don't purchase their products. But that is really not what you are after FB. You want the CHEAPEST price you can get on something, and then complain about corporations making too much money and not paying a realistic living wage. You can't have it both ways!
So the answer is to move to San Carlos where you can pay your employees (gardener, house cleaner, restaurant waiter, etc.) less than you would pay in the U.S.
Here is a proposal for you FB. Pay your house keeper or gardener $15 to $20 per hour so that they can earn a "realistic living wage" so that she and her family don't have to migrate to the U.S. as illegal workers. Even though food is often less at the restaurants in San Carlos, pay that waiter the same tip they would have earned in the U.S., afterall he did the same amount of work. Gasoline is relatively inexpensive in San Carlos, pay the guy who pumps your gas and cleans your windshield a couple of dollars for that service. Take responsibility for yourself FB, paying a "reasonable living wage" starts with you and your wallet.
The problem is not "illegal" workers, we the consumers are the problem! We are cheapskates. Get off the backs of Mexicans who are trying to support their families in a lifestyle similar to what you enjoy FB.
2. The very easy fix for illegal workers is to penalize the companies that employ them. If you want to really fix the "illegal" problem, make employment of them a federal offense.
From my experience, Mexicans (both legal and illegal) are some of the hardest workers on the face of the Earth. They certainly can work circles around the average U.S. worker. If anyone wants to use the term "lazyass", just look in our own U.S. backyard.
Yes, let's pay every worker of every nationality more, so that they can enjoy the same lifestyle that you and I enjoy FB. And I'm willing to pay for it in higher prices. Will you FB?
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FB
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Posted: Mon Sep 18th, 2006 08:34 pm |
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peg wrote:
PROFITS..
FB.....not exactly. The article says the company raised it's starting wage by $1 per hour. One employee changed jobs to earn $7.75. That means the job previously paid $6.75. But $6.75 is more than the $5.60 she was earning at Wal Mart. Why didn't she change jobs sooner? Coud it be that the "illegal immigrant" was a better, more qualified worker at a higher wage. Actually there is not enough meaningful information in the article to draw any meaningful conclusions.
But further research will!!
There is some Mexican bashing going on in this thread and that is unfortunate and unacceptable. It is nothing more than good old fashioned prejudice. I AM IN FAVOR OF FIXING THE "ILLEGAL" WORKER ISSUE, REGARDLESS OF WHAT COUNTRY THEY ARE FROM, BUT DISCRIMINATION IS NOT THE ANSWER.
FB response raises two issues (well actually more)
1. The real problem is not "illegal" workers , but companies like Wal Mart ..........
....... don't purchase their products.
........ Unlike some I avoid WALLMART and the CHEAP junk ... (COSTCO should also be included!)
So the answer is to move to San Carlos where you can pay your employees (gardener, house cleaner, restaurant waiter, etc.) less than you would pay in the U.S.
OK, I take it that you have the gardener, house cleaner and all.. well not everyone does.. (I do that for myself).
Here is a proposal for you FB. Pay your house keeper or gardener $15 to $20 per hour so that they can earn a "realistic living wage" so that she and her family don't have to migrate to the U.S. as illegal workers.
Don't have one here.. why would you expect me to have one there... Even though food is often less at the restaurants in San Carlos, pay that waiter the same tip they would have earned in the U.S., afterall he did the same amount of work. Already do... Gasoline is relatively inexpensive in San Carlos, pay the guy who pumps your gas and cleans your windshield a couple of dollars for that service. I always tip the guy pumping the fuel.. don't you? ........ Get off the backs of Mexicans who are trying to support their families in a lifestyle similar to what you enjoy FB. I did not pick on the Mexicans... you do however. What "lifestyle" are your referring to? YOU are the one with the maid and gardener.....
2. The very easy fix for illegal workers is to penalize the companies that employ them. If you want to really fix the "illegal" problem, make employment of them a federal offense. Good idea.. isn't it already illegal ? apparently not enforced !!
From my experience, Mexicans (both legal and illegal) are some of the hardest workers on the face of the Earth. Not an argument in general.. but I don't think that statement is accurate.. Every nationallity has some of each !!
Yes, let's pay every worker of every nationality more,
... or just a FAIR WAGE?? so that they can enjoy the same lifestyle that you and I enjoy FB. And I'm willing to pay for it in higher prices. ...Looks like you can be the model for us.. by the way,, where do you live? ...........
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peg
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Posted: Mon Sep 18th, 2006 09:19 pm |
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FB, to answer your questions:
Costco is not the worst employer, Pays significantly more than WalMart and includes health benefits
You ask why you should have a house keeper and maid in San Carlos......so that the local nationals can earn a descent living locally to avoid becoming illegals in the States. Yep, you want someone else to do something about illegal workers. Here is something for you to do personally to address the situation. You do live in San Carlos don't you?
You ask if a tip in Mexico. Yes, I do, and more generously percentage wise than in the States because I am tipping for the same amount of work as opposed to a percentage of the tab. Yes, I do tip at the service station.....except when they short change me, they have already deducted their tip.
No, FB, employment of illegal workers is currently not a federal offense. I'm suprised you didn't know that.
FB you misrepresented my statement. I will make it clear. Currently, the average Mexican worker (whether in Mexico or in the States) works much harder than the average U.S. worker, in my opinion and experience.
FB you want everyone to earn a fair wage...I presume regardless of nationality, education, or race. I agree. So tell me, what is a "fair wage?"
The only model I want to be is for you to stop the insulting characterizations of any nationality.
I live part time in California and part time in Mexico. I plan on moving to Mexcio full time in about 4 months. I find in my experience that most of the Mexicans to be less bigoted than some people in the States. (By the way, should you honor me by thinking I am Hispanic, I come from Irish stock)
Where do you live?
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FB
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Posted: Mon Sep 18th, 2006 09:55 pm |
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Two quotes from newspaper articles..
1)
An employer found to have knowingly hired, recruited or referred for a fee, or continued to employ, an unauthorized alien for employment in the United States shall be subject to an order to cease and desist from the unlawful behavior and to pay a civil fine. An employer can be fined $250 - $2,000 per unauthorized alien with respect to whom the First offense 2 occurred before September 29, 1999, and not less than $275 and not exceeding $2,200, for each unauthorized alien with respect to whom the offense occurred on or after September 29, 1999.
An employer can be fined from $2,000 - $5,000 per unauthorized alien for a Second offense that occurred before September 29,1999, and between $2,200 - $5,500 if occurred on or after September 29, 1999. An employer can be fined from $3,000 - $10,000 per unauthorized alien for each Third or Subsequent offense that occurred before September 29, 1999, and between $3,300 - $11,000 if occurred on or after September 29, 1999. These penalties are not limited to employees for whom employers complete and retain I-9 files, but also cover employers’ use of contract personnel known to them to be unauthorized to work in the United States.
2)
Between 1999 and 2003, work-site enforcement operations were scaled back 95 percent by the Immigration and Naturalization Service, which subsequently was merged into the Homeland Security Department. The number of employers prosecuted for unlawfully employing immigrants dropped from 182 in 1999 to four in 2003, and fines collected declined from $3.6 million to $212,000, according to federal statistics
In 1999, the United States initiated fines against 417 companies. In 2004, it issued fine notices to three.
The government's steady retreat from workplace enforcement in the 20 years since it became illegal to hire undocumented workers is the result of fierce political pressure from business lobbies, immigrant rights groups and members of Congress, according to law enforcement veterans.
"The claims of this administration and its commitment to interior enforcement of immigration laws are laughable," said Mark Krikorian, executive director of the Center for Immigration Studies, an advocacy group that favors tougher workplace enforcement, among other measures. "The administration only discovered immigration enforcement over the past few months, five years into its existence, and only then because they realized that a pro-enforcement pose was necessary to get their amnesty plan approved."
Angela Kelley, deputy director of the National Immigration Forum, which supports immigrant rights, agreed that enforcement has been "woefully tiny."
"Why should the public believe it, because the government hasn't done it before?" Kelley asked.
In recent months, U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement, which succeeded the INS, has dramatically stepped up enforcement efforts. It won 127 criminal convictions last year, up from 46 in 2004, and obtained $15 million in settlements from an investigation of Wal-Mart and 12 subcontractors last fall, a spokesman said. Comparable figures before 2003 were not tracked, the agency said.
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FB
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Posted: Mon Sep 18th, 2006 09:56 pm |
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peg wrote: FB, to answer your questions:
.............
The only model I want to be is for you to stop the insulting characterizations of any nationality.
...........
Which nationality do you feel I insulted?
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Jimmy
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Posted: Tue Sep 19th, 2006 03:19 am |
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I have no small amount of experience with illegals working in the US as I have been around them all of my 60 years here in the Southwest and Sonora Desert. I also have been living on and off in Mexico for over 40 years. In fact my associate and myself have employed them for over 35 years. I have many many illegal friends, some that I have known for over 30 years. I have lived with them, worked with them, ate with them, drank with them. I know their wives and have seen their children grow up to be as American as I. Surprisingly many of these grown children are so americanized that, like many of my gringo friends, they too are afraid to visit Mexico! I closed by construction business over 10 years ago but my associate keeps a staff of approximately 30 men, of which, I estimate, over 60% are illegal. His turnover is tremendous as most of the workers are uneducated or under educated and from rural areas with little or no social or cultural sophistication. They either quit or are fired after only a month or two of work. A few have worked up to supervisor and support their families well. They have brought their wives and children here and other children constantly are being born here.
It is impossible for us, as employers, to know if the employee is legal or not as the basic Fake paperwork for employment is readily available to purchase. Drivers license, Social Security Cards with #s, Birth Certificates and or Green cards. So convincing is this paperwork that some of the men can and do pass back and forth across the border to visit their families in Mexico for special occasions.
All start at minimum wage and all proper withholding taken. As I understand it workers with fake ID do not file for tax returns and all of that money is held and used by the government along with the social security and Medicare withholding. I can only speculate that the amount is enormous. Occasionally the IRS will notify us that a certain SS# is not valid and that employee just buys another set of ID, changes his name and continues to work under the new name.
We had a Veterinarian from Sonora who came up to work using his passport. He quickly became a supervisor. He would work for 6 months then return home for a couple of weeks then return to work again. I ask him why he was working here and he said that he could make much more money here as a landscape Foreman than at home working in his profession. He always told me that he hated being away from his children. One day after a few years of work he didn't return. Then about a year later he was back. I ask why he returned and he told me "My wife likes the money". So now he has once again quit and returned to his family in Sonora, after approximately 10 years of working here.
Miguel came with his wife from San Salvador. (Terrible stories about how the Mexicans treat Central Americans caught passing through Mexico ). They worked for 4 years and saved $40,000. 2 years working for my associate and 2 more years working in Nebraska. They returned home and bought a large house on the beach in Puerto La Libertad, San Salvador. They split the house and rent half to gringos. After about 2 years He and his wife returned and worked here in Arizona for another 4 years then returned home and bought enough rental property and now live the good life as landlords. His brother is still here working and we keep in touch.
In 1991,while working in San Diego, an illegal employee of mine was arrested in a bar fight, sent to jail, deported and returned home all within 24 hours.
My work for the past 15 years has been that of helping after natural catastrophes and disasters. I work all over the US from large cities to rural areas. During the past 8 to 10 years I have seen more and more and more illegals in every nook and cranny in every state in which I have worked. In large cities. In rural areas. Places that I thought I would never see a large concentration of illegals. Virgina, North and South Carolina, Illinois, Michigan, Upstate New York, Ohio. Sometimes, I wander how long it will be before we are saturated with them. In my beloved Southwest, in many communities and Cities they and there children have made a cumulative effect and now are becoming majorities. With the majority comes their elected officials and then laws can change to accommodate the majority.
I have mixed emotions. I do believe that there is truly an invasion taking place. We are told that there are approximately 10 million illegals in the US..I think that there is closer to 30 million.
If we let in enough will their taxes pay for our Social Security when I retire? What about the riff Raff. Plenty of them come with the good. What to do?? What to do??
Thank god it will not be my decision. That power is in the hands of moderately incompetent government officials who are always reactive, not pre active. (Anyone know of the Peter principle?? "A person is elevated to his highest level of incompetence".
The US supports Mexico. Their #1 source of income is Tourism, #2 is approximately $10 BILLION yearly sent home to their families in Mexico by the Mexicans working here. and #3 is their oil industry. Soon US investments in property will be enough to enter this category.
I would not want to see any of my friends or acquaintances deported. I would like to see them made citizens. But I am nervous about the volume and quality of the illegals that are now pouring over the border into the US. Certainly I have some ideas about how to cope with this situation but I certainly would not voice them. Besides my voice will not make one little difference in what the final outcome will be.
If US companies paid a living wage most of the goods and services that we know now would be priced out of the reach of all but the wealthy.
No I don't have a plan or any answers, but I would like to keep the lifestyle that I have become accustom to, not wealthy but comfortably poor.
Last edited on Tue Sep 19th, 2006 03:27 am by Jimmy
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peg
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Posted: Tue Sep 19th, 2006 04:13 am |
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Thank you Jimmy for an extremely comprehensive analysis of the issues. Your experience with illegals closely parallels mine here in California. However, you are better able to articulate your experiences better than I.
You are able to recognize the issues, pro and con, without resorting to unsubstantiated allegations, innuendo, and bigotry.
Although I understand your reluctance to propose a solution for the "problem", I am most interested in any proposals that will get our legislators off their burros.
Last edited on Tue Sep 19th, 2006 04:14 am by peg
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JZ
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Posted: Tue Sep 19th, 2006 05:50 am |
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Thanks for the post Jimmy.
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OTB AGAIN
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Posted: Tue Sep 19th, 2006 03:25 pm |
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| It's truly a sticky situation. When I compare the average Mexican citizen to myself, I feel very fortunate to be lucky enough to be born in the United States. I don't understand why Mexico is still a third world country. Is it cultural? Is the the 'culture of corruption" (where have I heard that before?). In San Carlos, on holiday weekends, we see PLENTY of very wealthy Mexican citizens, so we know there is money to be earned in Mexico. Does everyone in Mexico have equal opportunity? Is the United States to blame for Mexico's problems? So Fox encourages the have-nots to go-get-it in El Norte. So we become the aristocracy's pressure relief valve. Wasn't NAFTA supposed to create more jobs in Mexico? Isn't NAFTA blamed for many factory jobs being sent south of the border? So we send our better paying factory jobs south to reduce the cost of production (lower product prices) AND we farm out our lower paying jobs to illegal immigrants because they're the only ones who will do it? What a mess! I have lived in Tucson for 35 years. I have witnessed the changes. A murder used to be rare and major news. A majority of the inmates in our prisons are illegal Mexican immigrants. MS13 originated in Mexico. Do American citizens have the right to direct their own destiny, or are we forced to accept change that is imposed on us through illegal means? Where do we draw the line? Wait a minute, that line is called THE BORDER.
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abraham
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Posted: Tue Sep 19th, 2006 06:54 pm |
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"average Mexican citizen" ?
that makes me think how is an "average american citizen" ?
Last edited on Tue Sep 19th, 2006 07:05 pm by abraham
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